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irongame427
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+ 78 TEST IS NOT TEST!! (prop vs E vs C etc ) Broscience debunked

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Yup you read it right, all the broscience thats pushed around steroid forums about test being test and ester only effects the half-life of the drug is bullshit. And dont worry i have my citations to back up these bold but true claims. Ive been getting alot of PMs to get more info on the subject as I been dropping hints around the forums on my new thoughts and findings so i figured its best to make a post so everyone can read this. So were gonna talk about esters. This is something ive been researching about for the last 2 months or so after using different esters of drugs and noticing different effects both positive and negative. The common belief among the huge majorly of us is that “Testosterone is Testosterone”, the ester just effects the half life. Well after much research ive found that this is just not the case. Different esters will greatly influence many different aspects of the drugs actions including

1) Conversion to estrogen
2) Nitrogen retention/anabolic nature
3) Peak plasma levels of the drug
4) How suppressive the drug is
5) And a few other things

How esters work

Im sure most of you understand what an ester is but heres a little bit more indepth explination. Steroids are 4 ring structures with 19 carbon atoms. Heres a picture of what the molecule looks like http://img.springerimages.com/Images/SpringerBooks/BSE=0164/BOK=978-3-54...

So as we all know test no ester is in and out of the system very quickly, so scientists decided to add a side chain or “ester” to extended the active life of the steroid so injection frequencies could be cut down. So if you look at the picture above you will see how the molecule is numbered. Notice the OH or hydroxyl group at the 17th position? Thats necessary for the steroid to bind to the androgen receptor, so this is where they add the ester. So with this side chain blocking the 17th beta position the steroid is temporally inactive. But as soon as it gets into the blood stream, esterase enzymes come and hydrolyze the ester, or in other words remove the ester which restores the hydroxyl group making the steroid active. And lastly, the longer the ester the less water soluble it is and more fat soluble. Something that is more fat soluble is going to take longer be released from the deposit or “depot” the injection creates.

Long esters are more anabolic and will cause more muscle gain

So now that you know how esters work we can talk about their actions and how “test is not test”
First will talk about how longer esters are more anabolic and will cause more muscle gain then shorter esters. In 1954 a scientist named Reifstein and his team did a study comparing Testosterone Enathate with Testosterone Propionate. The results of these studys were that Test e resulted in total nitrogen retention of 1.76g/day vs prop only 1.02g/day. And obviously they found the duration of anabolic activity was 33 days with test e and 12 days with prop.(1) These were with the same doses 200mgs of each. So overall the longer ester retains more nitrogen (muscle gain) per day then shorts and remains active in the body for much longer. So its doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know that if something causes higher levels of nitrogen retention, and hangs around in your body longer its going to be more anabolic. And real life experience tells us the same. Think of a prop kicker, of 150mgs eod, or just a prop cycle. Ive done 6 week kickers while waiting for 500mgs ew of test e to kick in and the results of the prop are not even close to the same as the long esters, despite the same dosage AND 150mgs of prop eod (525mgs ew) actually contains more pure test then 500mgs of test e.

plasma levels and suppression and Estrogen

Scientists did a study on 3 different testosterone esters, short, medium and long esters. And what they found was the short esters caused the greatest peak plasma levels of testosterone, next highest was the medium and lowest peak was the last. But they found that the long esters caused the greatest suppression on the gonadal axis and metabolic functions.(2) They even upped the short ester dose by 2-3 times and were still not able to replicate the suppression and metabolic effects of the long esters. And this greater suppression is also due to the fact that longer esters convert more readily to estrogen, which is what I’m going to get to next.

Im sure alot of you have noticed bloat is greater with long esters. Despite the fact the same people say test is test we dont typically use shorts for bulks and longs for cuts. We use shorts for cuts and contest preps because they dont convert to estrogen to the same degree as longs do, in turn causing less water retention. So going back to the study (2) estradiol levels were much higher with the group using long esters despite identical doses of the drug. So in short, long esters cause a higher rise in estrogen. The study with the 3 different testosterone esters was done over a 28 week period. The shortest esters allowed for the quickest return of natural levels of hormones. Sperm count also remained the highest with the short esters. So concluding that short esters are less suppressive then long esters. Part of the reason why long esters are so much more suppressive is due to the rise in estrogen they cause. Im not gonna explain the negative feedback system of the hpta here in depth but basically the STOP mechanism of the hpta telling it not the produce anymore testosterone is estrogen. it binds in the hypothalamus which tells it not to produce anymore testosterone as the estrogen levels reflect adaquate levels of testosterone.

Estrogen and IGF-1 and GH

So I’m sure many of you know that using testosterone increases GH and igf-1 levels to a degree. But did you know that the increase in these hormones are due on estrogen aromatization? (3)(4) So now going back we know that long esters cause greater increases in estrogen, and estrogen increase GH and igf-1. So using long esters will result in greater muscle gain due to the factors I presented earlier and also the increase in gh and igf-1 levels caused by the greater levels of estrogen long esters cause.

So what about steroids other then Testosterone?

So now ive talked about how esters effect the effects of testosterone, is it the same for all steroids with esters? Well ive found some medical studies done on the different nandrolone esters. These studies had the exact same findings as the testosterone esters. NPP had greater peak plasma levels, suppression was greater with the long estered nandrolone (deca), and the anabolic effect was greater with the long ester (deca). And most of us who have ran both Deca and NPP can say NPP causes less water retention. And the people ive talked to still say Deca is superior for muscle gain. Its been many years since ive used deca so i cant say myself. Ive been using npp the last few cycles but next winter ill be using deca so ill be able to give an accurate comparison.

Summary
Longer esters cause higher levels of estrogen
Longer esters cause more water retention
Longer esters cause more suppression of the HPTA
Longer esters cause higher levels of nitrogen retention (muscle gain)in other words are more anabolic
Shorter esters cause higher peak plasma levels

So I still need to do some more research on how this applies to other esterfied steroids. But from the short amount of reading I did do it seems this applys to steroids that can aromatize, and can convert to DHT. So the only ones that dont apply to this is trenbolone as it doesn’t convert to DHT or estrogen, an masteron as its already a DHT. But further research is needed.

So in short, with diet in check and your goal is to gain the most amount of pure muscle, use long esters for bulking. Although I am intrigued about possibly mixing nandrolone esters next bulk. Yes the deconate will results in more nitrogen retention and muscle, but the npp reaches greater peak plasma levels, so there could be some benefit of using them together, some type of synergy. Much like how guys who like sust swear its the best form of test. And thats my next bulking cycle, sust and deca (possibly with npp also). Gonnna see the benefits of mixing esters.

  1. Reifenstein, et. al. Studies comparing the effects of certain testosterone esters in man.J Am Geriatr Soc. 1954 May;2(5):293-8.. PMID: 13162731
  2. Journal of Andrology, Vol. 24, No. 5, September/October 2003 Copyright © American Society of Andrology Pharmacokinetics and Degree of Aromatization Rather Than Total Dose of Different Preparations Determine the Effects of Testosterone: A Nonhuman Primate Study in Macaca fascicularisGERHARD F. WEINBAUER*, CARL-JOACHIM PARTSCH, MICHAEL ZITZMANN, STEFAN SCHLATT AND EBERHARD NIESCHLAG

  3. [Veldhuis JD, Metzger DL, Martha Jr PM, Mauras N, Kerrigan JR, Keenan B, Rogol AD, Pincus SM 1997 Estrogen and testosterone, but not a nonaromatizable androgen, direct network integration of the hypothalamo-somatotrope (growth hormone)-insulin-like growth factor I axis in the human: evidence from pubertal pathophysiology and sex-steroid hormone replacement. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 82:3414–3420

  4. Keenan BS, Richards GE, Ponder SW, Dallas JS, Nagamani M, Smith ER 1993 Androgen-stimulated pubertal growth: the effects of testosterone and dihydrotestosterone on growth hormone and insulin-like growth factor-I in the treatment of short stature and delayed puberty. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 76:996–1001

  5. Pharmacokinetics and Pharmacodynamics of Nandrolone Esters in Oil Vehicle: Effects of Ester, Injection Site and Injection VolumeCharles F. Minto, Christopher Howe, Susan Wishart, Ann J. Conway, and David J. HandelsmanJ. Pharmacol. Exp. Ther., Apr 1997; 281: 93.

  6. Belkien, L., Schurmeyer, T., Hano, R., Gunnarson, P. O. and Nieschlag, E.: Pharmacokinetics of 19-nortestosterone esters in normal men. J. Steroid Biochem. 5: 623-629, 1985
MikeMentzersGlasses's picture

While it is interesting to read, and you've clearly sent a lot of time putting this together, there are some issues.

You cite 6 references:

  1. Reifenstein et al (1954) - This study is from nearly 70 years ago. You would not be published with references 70 years old.

  2. Weinbauer et al (2003) - A better study date, but this is a nonhuman primate study. You can not extrapolate data and make it applicable to humans.

  3. Veldhuis et al (1997) - This study is on "pubertal boys and prepubescent girls with sex steroid hormone deficiency". I don't understand how this is applicable in any way.

  4. Keenan et al (1993) - This is again, the wrong study sample. This data is irrelevant.

  5. Minto et al (1997) - This actually starts to get interesting briefly but it is important to note, the sample size was very small, the dosages used were smaller than anyone would take usually and the information is fairly obvious. I think the really interesting part you didn't actually talk about, which was the administration site findings.

  6. Belkien et al (1985) - A 1985 study with a sample size of 5. Good usage of dosages, but it's a fertility study and very little, if anything could be inferred from this.

It's really important the information we share is relevant, up to date and thoroughly read.

Diesel77's picture

Individual who posted this hasn't been back since 2018 bro, but thanks for the info.

MikeMentzersGlasses's picture

My mistake. Not used to this forum. Thanks for letting me know

steroidmen's picture

I don't feel the effect of propionate at all. Enanthate only. And I didn't feel npp even when I set 100 a day. Enanthate + Deca test is mine!

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press1's picture

An Important point this post emphasizes is how crucial Estrogen is as part of the muscle building and strength process because it causes an increase in IGF-1 and GH production - some guy's are under the illusion that absolutely all estrogen must be destroyed and it is the No.1 enemy but this simply isn't the case.

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ONESICK's picture

Curious, any houghts on carrier oils? Because this also has an effect on how fast your body metabolizes test from something I read a while back. Say pharma grade test c/e will use castor oil because it has a high viscosity. So it aligns well with the longer half-life esters so they metabolize at basically the same rate. Which is why they suggest pinning lest frequently. Versus MCT which has a lower viscosity rating so it absorbs much quicker within a couple of hours. In turn it has an effect on the ester at which your body will metabolize it quicker. Say an enanthate ester time will be cut in half. At which you may have to pin more frequently than you thought.

SuperBrish's picture

Interesting you say that bc I had originally started my TRT with CENSORED test c in grape seed, and I swear I got a better kick from it than pharma castor oil carried cyp. The grape seed pin was like a 6 hour boner timer. Expensive af but might get some more of that to try one day.

Had a visit with my TRT doc today and he told me test e is "just better" than test c. He said it halfway out the door so I didn't inquire further but his comment got me searching and found this sub and well here I am. Wondering.

Greg's picture

...and here I am left wondering if you'd mind reading the rules

SuperBrish's picture

Sorry it's a compounding pharmacy not a UGL source so didn't realize that wasn't allowed.

ONESICK's picture

Yeah i generally go by esters and I pin every 3 days on E regardless. I wasn't a fan of castor and grapseed. I always would get lumps.
Trying to reduce any type of sides myself. Whether it was IM, shallow IM or Sub-Q, I've tried it all to see what works for me.
Bro science fucks everything up. I don't remember where but there was a study on oils and they alleged oils affected the half-life.
I didn't put too much effort into lookinga further lol. I rely on good ol trial and error on myself, backed by bloods.

Rushourhead's picture

well formulated, real treasures thank you such articles I am here. information information! top!

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LUG2109's picture

Shit. I feel empowered. Invaluable resources. Summed up nicely. Good shit!

HanginLow's picture

Really great read man and some interesting conclusions. As someone part of the science community though I think peer review is a very important process. I wanted to point out a couple observations.

plasma levels and suppression and Estrogen
I do believe your conclusions are correct but I do not know how much you can extrapolate from this study. "Scientists did a study on 3 different testosterone esters, short, medium and long esters"
The Study referenced - treatment for 28 weeks with either T enanthate (TE) every 4 weeks, T buciclate (TB) every 7 weeks, or T undecanoate (TU) every ten weeks
testosterone buciclate half life 29.5-40 days - very very long ester
Testosterone undecanoate half life 20 days - very long ester
testosterone enanthate half life 4.5 days - medium ester

So in fact we have 2 very long esters and one medium borderline short ester. I think also the dosing schemes makes this study less applicable, but it is a monkey study which is nice.

"They even upped the short ester dose by 2-3 times and were still not able to replicate the suppression and metabolic effects of the long esters." This has more context now considering the disparity of ester half lifes.

"These studies had the exact same findings as the testosterone esters. NPP had greater peak plasma levels, suppression was greater with the long estered nandrolone (deca), and the anabolic effect was greater with the long ester (deca" I would love to see these studies? The study you provided in on the pharmocodynamics of different injection sites and volumes.

I think the point you missed is Tolerability. Longer esters of testosterone were actually produced because of the lack of tolerability of testosterone propionate https://eje.bioscientifica.com/view/journals/eje/160/5/815.xml . So in the real world application with clients, this is the principal I end up using.

Great read and thought provoking, gave me something to do while doing morning cardio. I wonder how your thoughts have changed on this post since it is almost 7 years old.

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JakeKO's picture

Definitely need to read more posts like this one.
I would still like to better understand all the differences between Cyp and Enanthate though. There has to be more to it than just a few days longer half life. Why would the scientists even bother. I’ve been running Dragon Pharma Testo Blend 350 almost exclusively for years now and some Prop or Suspension here and there for cut cycles. Testo Blend 350 Is composed of Testosterone Enanthate 200mg , Testosterone Cypionate 100mg , Testosterone Propionate 50mg,. I like it better than Sust. Although after reading this, I do recall more noticeable gains from lesser amounts of Test Cyp years ago. For some reason I never went back to Cyp, probably because of 350 ml over 250 ml. Now after reading this, I really think I need to run some Cyp just to see if I notice a difference. Thank you for this post. Digging deep into these forums is really starting to pay off educationally, which at the end of the day is the most important part of using gear.

HanginLow's picture

IDK if this was for me or OP but if you read my comment I basically tear apart his entire hypothesis. He mis categorized the esters and did not provide medical data for his claims about NPP.

If you are looking for the difference in gains between Enanthate and Cypionate you are looking in the wrong spot. Ester selection comes down to one variable; Tolerability.

Training and Nutrition > Drugs all day long

you are focusing on maybe a 1-3% difference while neglecting the 40-80% increase in gains you could get from dialing in diet and training.

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Claudezilla's picture

Lol everyone still reading that(garbage) and just eating it up……people really need to be seeing what you had to say

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simonmagus84's picture

I really miss the OP. He was a quality member and always putting out great content in the community. The two of you would’ve had interesting conversations. Would you ever consider doing your own write up about esters ? This is an ongoing dialogue in almost every source discussion page regarding preference of esters or the topic of Sust being administered ED/EOD vs 2 x a week and it simply goes on. I always enjoy your posts and learn a lot so you definitely have my vote to put out a topic on this.

HanginLow's picture

I am definitely not going to talk shit about a guy who is not here to defend himself and has cranked out some great content. I would of loved to have a chat with him, OP seems very knowledgeable. I think he would agree this post is a bit of a stretch though, based on 1 misinterpreted study (you cannot make a play for short esters without even having one in the study).

As far as esters it is a bit of a topic I made it seem simpler up top. Esters to me are all about tolerability and injection scheme. If you are smart you are doing higher injection frequency to mimic the bodies natural daily production of testosterone. Many side effects can be mitigated this way and has many benefits including; reduced scar tissue build up (when using insulin needles and low volume injections), extremely steady plasma levels (reduces side effects, remember the larger the peak, the larger the bodies response with enzymes (aromatase/5aR) to convert off the excess test to metabolites and keep homeostasis, reduce the peak reduce the sides). So when you are injecting ED or EOD regardless of cruise/blasting as most hardcore guys do, the ester half life becomes inconsequential.

So it comes down to what pins the easiest, for some that is E for some (me) that is C. Some can handle propionate and love TP and Sust.

Now if I am splitting hairs I would lean towards shorter esters over all for simple biological principle of; shorter time in body = less tolerance build. I like the idea of of shorter esters to blast up and maintain blood levels quickly of drugs and longer esters for cruises when stability is preferred. Hope this shed some light on my opinion of the topic, might do an expanded post if other members find it interesting enough.

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BigVeg's picture

Really informative read thank you.

LynnsFinest's picture

Good read . Newbie all helpful info +1

Moraku's picture

But test e and test c are basically both just test right...? RIGHT?

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Billdunn's picture

What's your thoughts on no ester? I agree with all of the above but TNE Mast prop and tren ace for 6 weeks had me swole. I've done the same with cyp but not even close when it came to fat loss and muscle gain.

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Billdunn's picture

Been there , done that

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SamMed's picture

Acquired new gems. Thanks.

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Jamie1975's picture

Good info. Great starting point for newbs.

Shitforbrains's picture

I’ve always loved sust and deca. Combined the gains are incredible. Would love to see what NPP would do thrown into the mix. Very good read brother. Thanks for the post.

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Jayalli's picture

Good information thanks

JaxTheRipper's picture

First time back here in a long time. Trying Sustanon for the first time ever. I’m intrigued by it and hear a lot of good about it from my bodybuilding and powerlifting friends. The reason why I’ve never touched the stuff yet it because I don’t know the dosage frequency. I see everything from microdosing ED to pinning once a week. Please give me your experiences with Sustanon.

MonstrousS's picture

Thank you for this write up. Have you begun experimenting with mast, tren or dhb?