+ 4 What to do when Test isn't best?
I want to start this discussion for guys like me that don't respond well to medium to high doses of test. I'm extremely prone to estrogen side effects so I've chose to never run my test above 250mg/wk. I don't get any added benefits from higher doses, only added negative side effects. So what's a guy like me to do? I'll list some of the common steroids a guy could stack alongside a low dose of test and work through some of the pros and cons.
1. Orals
If you are comfortable with the potential liver stress and run orals for short duration, most of them will be a nice compliment to a low dose test cycle. The only one that I would avoid like the plague is dbol. Dbol aromatizes like crazy and it will be a battle to fight off the estrogen.
2. Masteron
Masteron is a great addition to low dose test and can help minimize estrogen sides. It's not gonna be a cycle with huge gains but they will be quality gains that you should hold onto. Mast can cause hairloss so keep that in mind.
3. EQ
EQ is a great match for low dose test. Slow steady quality gains. The only negatives I can think of are high RBC and lenght of cycle. You have to run EQ so long that it could cause shutdown problems and be a bitch to properly recover after PCT. Bold Cyp is a good choice to shorten the cycle and should be much easier to recover from.
4. Primo
Primo is another slow and steady compound but I really don't see the point of it. It's damn expensive and you could get similar results from Mast or EQ for much less money.
5. Deca
Deca is great for mass and strength but comes with so many potential problems. The biggest problem I see with Deca is how bad it shuts you down and how hard it can be to recover after the cycle is over. Some people say you can't run low dose test with Deca but it works well for alot of people, myself included.
6. Tren
Tren works great with low dose test, there really is nothing like it. But, I can't think of a steroid with more potential negative side effects than tren. So you'd better know what you are doing before you ever decide to try tren.
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Don't underestimate primo bro, if you get the real deal the shit is phenomenal and no sides at all (at least for me) Just gotta be patient and grab a bunch when one of these big sources runs a good promo.
Yeah I really appreciate all of the personal experiences shared here and the talk about primo has been a real eye opener.
Thanks for all of the great input so far guys. Let me add a little more to the discussion. Do any of you guys that aromatize really bad, not respond at all to TNE? I don't get anything from it at all. I tried it at 50mg and 100mg twice each and NOTHING! I did this over about a 3 month period to make sure it wasn't a fluke. I know it wasn't bunk because I gave the rest of the vial to a friend and he loved it.
I respond almost too well to TNE. 20-30mg of it and I'm an aggressive asswipe and don't want to leave the gym. Strength and endurance go way up. But I notice the estrogen that night because when I shoot it I can feel my heart pounding when I lay down and my nips hurt badly. So now I'm using nandro base and I like it so much more without the nasty sides
RustyhookerI've enjoyed the thoughts of the OP as well as folks posting replies. They're all perfectly on point and prove that its the whole picture. Gear is gear and it speeds repair IF you supply the proper environment.
Low test....take a look at simple lil anavar. The anabolic ratio alone tells you it speeds recovery, dry, strength improvement and it for me lowers appetite. Clean or cutting diet is a snap.
Eq...ran it low high and very high with test in all positions as well. Manipulate it to achieve what your diet dictates. Eq is my staple for years
Masteron. Im sure it would need blood work to see how it is for you but for me, its a mild ai. Ive run it low to very high. Its versatile. With test low or high as well. Adjust as needed and blood work dictates. Its a hardener.
Tren is a beast, not always a good one. I get introverted instead of outgoing. Folks talk and I dont care. I hear the teacher on peanuts talking...wha wha wha. Past 6 weeks and pct is harder and my thoughts get nutty and sometimes jealous.
Its good to see out of the box thinking! Adapt and overcome. Proof that food is even MORE important than we think.
+1 thank you for your input based on real life experiences.
Great post brother! The teacher from peanuts, wha wha wha is spit on lol. Funny reading it but not so much during it.
Anavar, eq and mast...literally my favorites and the only compounds I've mixed with test for a few years now. And only one at a time with the test. The one exception being now I'm running lgd 4033 as well to try it, being it isn't methylated...anavar is the only oral other than the lgd I will run now as it is mild...everything I run is strictly for lifting purposes...these are the compounds I feel the best on while lifting and give me the most productive workout sessions
Anavar for the skin splitting pumps it gives me and a bit of aggression under the weights. Ofcourse drol or dbol does and did give nice strength gains but fuck looking like a blimp and Im not concerned so much with weight gain anymore...and I don't fkn like them...bp through the roof and lethargy for me
Eq for the consistent smooth strength increase. The marathon lifting sessions when its hitting...and the all day pump it gives as well as an insatiable appetite which I have anyways this just magnifies it.
Mast for the aggression it gives me lifting that rivals tren without...lets face it...being fkn tren. Strength shoots through the roof on it!
These are all used at a smaller dose than most guys use that are half my size. And the only reason I use them ultimately, is because I'm a slave to the pin for life. And have to inject anyway. LIFT EAT REPEAT and +1 to waterhead for bringing in a good discussion
+1 great post. Do you run low test because high test causes bad sides, or do you just run lower mg's because it works for you?
I run lower mgs of everything I listed because I've learned for myself, gear is not the deciding factor in progress. And I truly am only concerned with the added lifting benefits of it. Plus groceries are damn expensive lol. But no, I have no negative sides at the measly doses I run.
I am beginning to think I may fall in your category as well. But I have noticed some test esters seem to agree with me more than others. TestC seems to be very friendly in particular at lower dose, Sustanon seems to not be agreeing (estro sides) Test P, Ace or Suspension all seem fine.
Your list is good. I just recently came off a long run of good primo and I honestly enjoyed it. I will definitely run it again. I had great strength gains only running one amp EOD and no negative sides at all. Even my blood pressure was great. It is expensive but if you can afford it I think for us guys that aren't trying to set the world on fire and content with slow and steady gains it is damn near perfect.
Masteron has also been good to me, but I think masteron does bring out more aggression than every other AAS including tren. It treated me pretty well tho and I will definitely run it again as well. I particularly like MastP.
Deca I am currently experimenting with at low dose just to see if I really can notice any benefit to my joints (mostly) So I will not comment much on it yet.
Tren. Tren is awesome, but it also will slowly push your sanity to the edge. Or maybe it is quickly. For me around the 9 week mark I realize that I am not 100% in control anymore. The mental sides with tren are all over the map and can change even from one cycle or ester to the next. Christmas every cycle if you will,lol. But seriously, you will start asking yourself at some point during your tren run if it is worth continuing. We can all promise you that. If you have a shaky relationship before you start tren, just don't. It will make things worse and likely precipitate the end of your relationship. If you are a good natured person in a good place in life and with your SO, go for it, but again, keep in mind you better be paying attention and questioning your feelings frequently.
I may use tren again one day but it will be a long fucking time before that day comes! Very bad experience with my last run. That shit had me in the same mental state as a meth head that had been up for 2 weeks straight!
So you ran 350 mg a wk of primo? Did you run any test with it or anything else? How long did you run it?
I was very happy with my primo run, but I've convinced myself that you don't need as much as everyone says. Most advise given states that you are wasting your time on less than 800mg wk. I just don't think that's true. I know that it is mild, but I think that even 300 mg a wk is enough to put you in an anabolic state, and adding 200 mg wk of test is more than enough to cover any shutdown. I know that side effects will very per person, but they "should" be very low, and much easier to recover from provided you are still able to recover. Isn't the main purpose of aas to put you in an anabolic state, utilizing nutrients more efficiently and faster recovery. I know there are some added benefits such as strength, but that is the main purpose. If someone shoots up with heroin and gets high, shooting up more heroin doesn't make them more high, just possibly dead
Yes, I ran it with a cruise dose of 200 per week test cyp. The strength gains were probably the most noticeable aspect for me. Don't get me wrong I have been steadily making strength gains for the last six year but I definitely felt like it was accelerated with the primo. I may have to run it once now at the recommended dosage to compare.
We need to all remember that every one of us is different and we have varying goals. What works for our pro caliber body builders is not what us gym rats with no aspirations for the stage should be considering. Like most of you I do this for me. I look amazing in my early forties, better than ever (truth be told). Run lighter doses and find out what clicks with you with where you are at in your training and goals. To hell with what the next guy is running.
I can vouch for his moods on tren
Yep, Tony is pretty good at reading me,lol
Nice post Darth. With the tren "youth" booming...your experience and advice concerning tren is valuable. Particularly the point you made concerning relationships and paying attention and questioning yourself.
From my own experience those comments are all definites running a dose that is considered normal or higher. I probably wont ever run tren again as I'm content with the journey. But I tried successfully running it at an unheard of low dose with a 2x a week injection protocol. I had no need for caber...no insomnia...did have the sweats...had all the strength gains I could want along with the accelerated healing. I found for myself more frequent injections became a hindrance to mental well being which in turn hindered lifting sessions. What I thought was focus was scatterbrained a.d.d. while lifting. Knocked back the amount big time and tren showed me its nice side with crisp focus while under the weight and outside of lifting. Everybody's different but in all honesty...no one needs tren in big doses. Imo abusing it shines a negative light on what we are all doing here. Have guys acting like a speed freak smokin valium, trying to glue a model airplane together in the dark....a mess all over up and down
My opinion may not mean anything here, especially considering my current level of conditioning, but at one time, I could definitely hold my own. Before my curent cycle, which was 700mg primo and 150 mg test c wk, I had never ran anything higher than 200 mg wk, including tren e. ( except 1 amp sust 250 wk for one cycle). And never more than one or two compounds, and one is usually a kicker. I started at 500 mg of primo and wish I would've stayed there, as I do not know if there was any added benefit to running it higher. 200 mg of test causes huge estro sides for me. When I took the 250mg of sust, it was the worst. I blew up like a blowfish. Adex does help me though. Also, I seem to do better with estro on test c than test e for some reason. not sure why that is.
My brother is a monster. Good genetics help I'm sure, but he only runs one 10 to 12 wk cycle yr, only one compound at a time (never stacks) & NEVER runs more than 200 mg wk.
Moral of my story is that I agree. I think low doses and fewer compounds are the key to better health and longevity. The older and hopefully wiser I get, the less I want to take chances with my health. Just my .02
Your post means a great deal my friend thank you for your input. +1
Your stance was moreso your experience brother which does matter as that's a big part of this forum. We share experiences and learn and adjust accordingly. Incorporating what we deem useful for ourselves.
The fact that you have the less is more mind set tells me you aren't afraid of hard work! And although you might not be at your best currently doesn't mean you wont be there again! The difference is you'll get there the correct way, without compromising longevity...knuckles brother!
Excellent response, thanks for the real word experience. +1
100% agree I'm exactly like you. Those who aren't genetically like us won't understand this at all but mirrors my thoughts on the matter perfectly
What have you found works well for you?
Low test like 250 or less with high anabolics like deca and eq for bulking with tbol. 150mg test with around 25mg tren a day for cutting with some var thrown in. NPP also works well there too for me but I can't handle mast or I'll lose all my hair
+1 thanks for the input.
AnonI don't understand why you can't just take aromasin or arimidex and take the higher dose of testosterone. It just feels the best with the least side effects so you can't go wrong
Because they don't always work.
Because I don't see any benefit from higher doses even with estrogen in control. I'd hate to see how much of an Ai I would have to run with higher test. I'm currently running Test C at 125mg / wk and running adex at .5mg eod. I haven't been able to get bloods done yet but I still feel like my estrogen is a little bit high. I don’t see the point in fighting the compounds I put in my body.
bigmak1TBH if your running test cyp at 125mg a week and you're taking 0.5mg of adex EOD there's something not right here.
At that dose of cyp most people wouldn't even need an AI.
Either your test c is well over dosed or your adex is possibly bunk.
If I ran adex at that dose on the test cyp dose you're currently taking (if it's dosed correctly) my e2 would definitely be low so blood work would be the best option brother a full female hormone panel.
Hope you get it all sorted, it's a complicated procedure anyone who's been on cycle or TRT for that matter knows it's no bed of roses and dialing everything in takes time and even then you still can't get it bang on all of the time.
I know alot of guys personally who can't believe the amounts of Ai that I have to take for such a low dose of test. Most of these guys don't even run an Ai with your typical 500mg/wk test dose. I have never met another guy that has the same problems with estrogen that I have. I definitely believe guys like me are in the minority. Btw I require just as heavy a dose of Aromasin. I just looked back through my log and at the same dose of test I was consistently using 12.5mg eod of Aromasin. I've just recently switched to adex to see if I could get a more stable estrogen level.
At 250mg of test a week you're obviously way beyond natural test production when blood levels peak. Exactly what Viking said...diet and training! Monster stacks don't necessarily give monster gains.
Now I'm going to push the lifting aspect down your throat! I said this in another post but feel it should be seen plenty. Food without lifting...useless for muscle gain...gear without lifting...useless for muscle gain! Lifting is the absolute boss! Food and gear the employees. Put them to work in the correct way!
I don't care what gear you take...if you don't lift to full complete exhaustion each and everytime...your body will half ass on gains just as you half assed on your lifts. "you" is in general...not personal. When doing an exercise you rep it till you can't even remotely perform it correctly. Idgaf if you're going heavy or light! That 250mg of test that all these guys think is a pussy amount, maybe are the ones being pussies in the gym. You can't tell me that isn't enough to grow if hittin the weights with utter brutal conviction!
You're not feeling hungry? Eat! If you are tearing your body to shreads lifting you must tear animals to shreads by the platefuls! Sorry PETA but fk you! And without food your body will say fk you! You take and take but never give me what I need to grow! Eating to gain is the hardest part to get right! Once that light bulb goes off and you provide the nutrients your body needs to repair and build...the sky's the limit.
So again...less gear is more if you have the ferocity in the gym to utilize that gear. Tons of shit stacked is a fkn waste if your not bonecrushin and even then imo is a waste unless you're a competitor. You can have massive gains with small amounts of gear and monstrous amounts of sets reps and food! We have a shit ton of work to do...lets get to gettin it!
Very well put I agree with you 100%
I definitely agree, eating is the toughest part to master of all of this. And I also agree that massive stacks for the vast majority of us here are pointless. I have made nice gains on strictly 200 test cyp per week, while also feeling great and not beholden to any AI's. Something everyone should consider.
So true! Imo there is much to be said about needing to take another drug to counteract the negative sides of another. All because you're taking the primary compound in an extreme fashion. When it is a fact these are exogenously administered and at the smallest of doses far exceeds natural production.
Ofcourse if the important aspect's aren't nailed down, diet, training, sleep/rest...the gains will be hindered leaving one to focus on the gear. It makes sense that, that becomes the focal point in most and they up the dosage. That is due to a lapse in steps taken when one first begins to train.
I think it all plays a roll in the bodybuilders of the past and how they looked as opposed to now. From my knowledge the whole ai issue wasn't an issue back then. Intense training on a level not understood today. And simple cylces in human amounts that weren't in excess. I believe nutrition wasn't as much of an issue as they ate whole foods so the lean gains you once saw were a direct effect of their brutal training and diet. Which in turn meant counteracting sides was basically not needed.
Nowadays food is so pumped with preservatives and chemicals it really hinders us. You have to be very conscious of what you are eating. It makes it that much harder to gain quality mass which becomes a snowball effect. Users upping doses to the extreme needing to compensate for poor food choices in our time, in turn needing to pop more pills to stop what becomes of that which shouldn't be an issue in the first place.
You just need to be very proactive and conscious of what you're puting in the grocery basket...it's all relative...
Absolutely love the way you explain things bolt makes for very easy reading. Cheers brother
Cheers and knuckles brother!
BOOOOOOOOOOOM!!..................... bro fist brother you just nailed it big time.
That's how we do it here goddammit! Knuckles brother!
RustyhookerProphet!
Knuckles brother Rusty! Pickin up what Im throwin down!
Well looking at the negatives of each and every compound that you have listed i would say its best to steer clear from all of them and concentrate on nothing but the diet and training, and let those two factors dictate the goal.