posted Fri, 03/29/2013 - 16:55
14042
+ 8 sustanon 250 - 10 weeks - 500 mg/week
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STATS, DESCRIPTION, GOALS
5'8"
189 lb
14-15% body fat
the goal of this cycle is to add 10-15 lbs of LBM and keep it with proper diet/PCT.
edit
fixed nolva/clomid cause they were labeled backwards
| Week | Sustanon 250 | Anastrazole |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | 500mg - 125mg EOD | .25mg EOD |
| 2 | 500mg - 125mg EOD | .25mg EOD |
| 3 | 500mg - 125mg EOD | .25mg EOD |
| 4 | 500mg - 125mg EOD | .25mg EOD |
| 5 | 500mg - 125mg EOD | .25mg EOD |
| 6 | 500mg - 125mg EOD | .25mg EOD |
| 7 | 500mg - 125mg EOD | .25mg EOD |
| 8 | 500mg - 125mg EOD | .25mg EOD |
| 9 | 500mg - 125mg EOD | .25mg EOD |
| 10 | 500mg - 125mg EOD | .25mg EOD |
| 11-13 | .25mg EOD | |
| Clomid | Nolvadex | |
| 14 | 100 | 40 |
| 15 | 100 | 40 |
| 16 | 50 | 20 |
| 17 | 50 | 20 |
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safetyfirst21Thank you sir. Its amazing how many users are shocked by this.
It is dependent on the dosing and what esters. But, a good rule of thumb is 3 days gap for prop or acetate, 2 weeks gap for ethane or cypionate, 5 weeks gap decanate, undeclyenate, laureate, etc. There are PCT calculators to determine when exactly you should start pct. But, these are good ballpark estimates.
safetyfirst21"It is dependent on the dosing and what esters."
I agree entirely.
waltrmy understanding was a 3 week gap due to the deca in sust, so i would not be running any sust for weeks 11, 12, 13.
i have gotten another suggestion which is that i might want to consider pinning prop as a taper during those 3 weeks at 100mg eod and then waiting 4 days from last pin and going into pct.
any thoughts?
safetyfirst21Whenever you want really, 1-3 would work fine. You'll have no natural test at this point and the prop clears fast, it doesn't hurt to jump on this one fast.
3 days
No you are wrong. There is a reason why he set it up that way.
he is using sust, so pct should be 3 wks after last pin.
correct. the decanoate ester takes a bit longer to clear than enanthate or cyp. extra time is needed. i'm waiting to see what his response is to me below before i make any recommendations.
things that i see need to be revised are AI dosing schedule, PCT to include the right AI, and possibly a prop taper. just depends on whether or not he's already on this cycle, which i think he is. i also feel that the duration of this cycle is too short. i like 8-10 weeks for short ester cycles. for sust, enanthate, or cyp, 12+. for first cycle, 12 weeks is the magic number IMO.
can i ask a couple questions before i give my advice?
age?
cycle history?
waltr26, first cycle.
ok. a little history about myself is wrapped up in this thread, if you're curious: http://www.eroids.com/forum/general/introduction/introduce-myself
outside of that, my goal has always been to give people facts so that they can build an understanding and make informed decisions for themselves.
for you and your current level of experience, best course of action is to keep it as simple as possible. my approach is rather conservative, yet effective.
sustanon is a great compound, and you can see some great results from it. only thing that i'd like to point out for you here is that sustanon is a blend made up of 4 esters. each ester provides for a different release into blood stream. what this means is that it creates the potential for fluctuations in hormonal levels - peaks and valleys, if you will. it is these peaks and valleys that bring about some of the side effects that we try to avoid.
typically, we want to take one compound and one single, long ester at a time. we do this because we want for your body to experience a more gradual increase and decline in serum levels. we then throw in the appropriate AI to ward off the estrogen issues. leading into PCT, we can take a few different approaches that will alleviate or avoid possible side effects, as well as speed up recovery and get you a step further for your next cycle.
i think i read something down the line about you already starting this cycle? if so, no point in giving you a new layout. instead, we can take a closer look at this one and see if it can be tweaked to better fit you.
waltrIn response, yes i've already started the cycle pinning 125mg EOD, I'm still in the first week but I am going to continue with the sust.
I'm open to any advice people have to offer.
I definitely read a lot of information before I started and I chose to go with sustanon for the first cycle. The general consensus that I read is that pinning EOD is the best way to keep the test levels as stable as possible, I realize that in future weeks the test levels in my body will increase dramatically, but as a first cycle I was thinking the total levels will be slightly lower using sustanon than either test e or c at 500mg a week.
From reading below I'm seeing it recommended that i add Aromasin to my PCT at 12.5/12.5/6.25/6.25.
I read above that you've mentioned adding a prop taper at the end of the cycle as well, I would be interested in hearing more about this.
shoot me a fr and pm, bro. let's visit a bit.
waltrFR sent
my question is always the same with people. Why use clomid and nolvadex together? they are both selective estrogenic receptor modulators. Just use one, and preferably only nolvadex since it is better at stimulating luteinizing hormone. Also, drop the arimidex for the cycle and use exemestane since it doens't counteract nolvadex like arimidex (anastrazole). In fact the A.I in your post cycle is going to be far more important than a serm, bc a serm will raise your estrgen levels. the A.I will reduce plasma levels of estrogen and stimulate LH production. so your cycle should conclude with the last injection, two weeks of an A.I, followed by four weeks of nolvadex and exemestane.
safetyfirst21You are partially correct and partially incorrect. Look down at my reply to the guy who replied to you. Nolva increases LH, yes. Clomid increases LH and FSH, so both are nice. I agree in part to your thoughts on an ai in PCT. Arimidex won't counteract, however it is a Type I ai, so rebound estro is inevitable if it is not tapered off. Aromasin is a Type II (suicide), this cat don't fuck around, what it bonds to, don't come back. Aromasin will also increase Test levels, LH for sure though I don't recall its effect on FSH. I know clomid WILL increase estrogen levels in clomid only trt patients, they are prescribed arimidex or aromasin just like patients receiving Test.
love the analogy!
safetyfirst21Had to throw a little thug in there.
care to share where you got this misinformation?
SERMs do not "raise estrogen levels"
bro... don't take this the wrong way, but this is NOT good advice. there is much more to recovery than counteracting fluctuating e2 levels. nolva is not going to revive the leydig cells in the testies the way that clomid will. its role there is so minute... that is why clomid is essential to every recovery. nolva's main function is to block the activity of the estrogen hormone at the receptors.
the idea behind PCT is to reboot HPTA function and restore balance to the axis. test levels are dropping rapidly once exogenous forms are no longer being administered. the administration of these exogenous hormones shuts down the HPTA thru negative feedback. as a result, hormonal imbalances are created. so, the dilemma here is to stimulate the positive feedback loop so that your body can begin to produce again and restore balance. your AI and nolvadex PCT protocol is not going to sufficiently restore that balance. not in the 4 weeks following the cycle.
i saw another post of yours that was not only misinforming people like this one is, but also contradicts this post of yours.
http://www.eroids.com/forum/steroids-qa/steroid-cycles/12-week-cycle.
no offense, brother, but you really need to do more research before you start giving advice to these newer guys. i realize you're only trying to help, and i can appreciate that. but we are talking about peoples endocrine systems. the wrong advice could cause someone permanent damage in the long run. so, it's important that we get it right.
1.) I apologize for the first point you brought up, that was completely incorrect information. However aramosin is always a better choice as it is a suicide inhibitor, not a type I which will cause an estro rebound further exacerbated by the serm raising test levels.
2.) By saying the A.I is more important, I was more or less stressing the importance of lowering e2 in post cycle. I wasn't trying to say forego SERM administration
3.) I was only trying to suggest a better protocol with the drugs, not reset his PCT timing, as everybody and their mother thinks two weeks after last injection is the right time to wait before PCT when in reality it's dose dependent.
*** Next time I will be more careful with my advice. Apologies.
It's all good brotha. We're here to learn and help others. I can appreciate your willingness to do both.
I can be a bit straightforward and blunt, so don't take it the wrong way. Just my hardheadedness...
serms raise circulating estrogen levels. they increase lh production, which increases test. this extra test aramotizes into estrogen. the reason you don't think that is bc while this extra estrogen is floating around in your body, it is competing with the serms to connect to your cell receptors. Serms absolutely 100% raise your estrogen levels this is indisputable.
Partial truth. One of my other posts clearly states the chain reaction you described. However, SERMs do not directly raise estrogen. They raise testosterone only during positive feedback - take it while on cycle and negative feedback prevents it - and the testosterone prompts aromatase synthesis, which in turn can cause estrogen to rise. SERMs do not compete for the AR receptor like test or other androgens do. They act on completely different receptors that the hormones and AIs. So they do not compete or counteract. Clomid and nolvadex play very different roles within the body as well. Bad information my friend.
No I know it doesn't raise estrogen directly. in the same way that serms don't raise testosterone directly, but the net effect is pretty predictable. Looking in to the differences between clomid and nolvadex, I feel the sides aren't worth the other effects these drugs cause. People worry about their endocrine system, how about their circulatory system and SERMs' tendency to increase risk of stroke? How about the fact that SERMs act on igf recepotors and inhibit Growth hormone output? How about the fact that SERMs' up regulate progesterone receptors? Call it my opinion, dont fill your body with a load of SERMs, use one or the other and preferably nolvadex. Maybe I'll go into more detail with my explanations next time, but I'm not giving out bad advice by saying dont use two SERM's especially at the dosages in this cycle.
safetyfirst21We're not arguing to prove that the SERMS are the specific cause for increased estrogen levels. They may not be the direct cause, but they are still partially responsible. My analogic example for this one is: my triceps "can" help my bench press, but my chest is what gives me my numbers along with front delts and lats yada yada yada. If my triceps were to mysteriously get weaker over night, would my bench not go down?
safetyfirst21I pulled these off of some other boards, based on these ID say that serms CAN and WILL raise estrogen levels.
Example 1:
My starting dose has been 12.5mg every day.
Blood test results as follows. The "NOW" results are after 5 weeks of clomid
Blood Test--------Previous---------------Range-------------Now-------------Range
LH-------------------8.9--------------1.5-9.3 MIU/ML-------29.8----------1.5-9.3 MIU/ML
FSH------------------3.9------------1.6 - 8.0 MIU/ML-------15.3----------1.6-8.0 MIU/ML
Testosterone---------670--------------250-1100 ng/dL---------860--------250-1100 ng/dL
Testosterone, Free--101.1------------46.0-224.0 pg/mL--------184----------35.0-155.0 pg/mL
Testosterone, Bio----221-------------110.0-575.0 ng/dL------------------------------------
SHBG-----------------30----------------7-49 nmol/L-----------------------------------------
ALBUMIN--------------4.8--------------3.6-5.1 g/dL----------------------------------------
Estradiol-------------20-------------< OR = 29-PG/ML-----------53---------13 - 54 PG/ML
Example 2:
my doc prescribed me clomid and arimidex for my hrt regiment because I told him that I'm planning on having a kid some time this year.
Initially my total test is 220 ng/dl my LH and FSH were on the low sides but my E2 was on point (sorry I couldn't remember exactly as I don't have a copy on me as im typing this) anyway, my doc started me at 50mg eod clomid and .50mg eod arimidex and 3 months later my total test was 440 ng/dl LH, FSH, and E2 levels also increased by several points (on the high side). Then my doc had me on 50mg ed clomid and 1mg eod arimidex and again 3 months later my lab results came and my total test was now 842 ng/dl LH, FSH, E2 has significantly went up again. I think my e2 was at 56 ng/dl which was labeled as "high" by labcorps.
And as for negative side effects, so far after being on this for 8 months or so I have nothing to complain about except as I mentioned earlier my E2 is elevated and that's about it.
safetyfirst21I partially agree with you and whats his name above. I've seen blood work of trt patients who for various reasons (such as attempting conception) are prescribed 25mg of clomid per day along with an ai instead of testosterone shots and an ai. Test shuts down LH and FSH(effects sperm), clomid stimulates both. In some of the blood work I've seen, patients on clomid only trt have drastically increased LH, FSH, free test, AND ESTROGEN. Clomid will increase estrogen levels in clomid only trt, so on paper it only makes sense that this may happen in PCT. Perhaps this is why Aromasin at 12.5/12.5/6.25/6.25 during PCT has become so popular and EFFECTIVE.
Overall I wouldn't follow his advice, however, he does have a couple facts in there.
you are correct. clomid has been medically documented as showing effectiveness as an alternative to trt because of its effects on the gonadatropins (LH & FSH). it is this very reason why it has been chosen as such a vital aspect for PCT and recovery.
aromasin was brought into the picture for PCT by a group of guys that proved its effectiveness through their own trial and error. it was bro science, but it worked, and they validated their theories with bloodwork. aromasin has been shown to exhibit positive effects beyond that of binding to aromatase. it has been shown to bind to SHBG; thereby, increasing the amount of "free test". it has also been shown to stimulate gonadatropin synthesis. it does this on a smaller scale than clomid, of course, but it is these reasons it has proven extremely effective during PCT.
in regards to your statement about estrogen being elevated from clomid, that is a partial truth. here's why: clomid stimulates a positive feedback loop with LH & FSH. these gonadatropins revive the leydig cells of the testies to begin producing testosterone once again. the enzyme aromatase exists in the body whether or not circulating testosterone is endogenous or exogenous. aromatase's job is to convert test to estrogen. as endogenous testosterone levels increase, the enzyme becomes more active. this is the basic homeostatic response to maintaining hormonal balance with the endocrine system. the other side of this is SHBG.
not trying to get too deep into this. but for this guy to make statements that nolvadex is a better choice for pct than clomid, and that AI's will counteract with SERMs, is very much misinformation. it's all about synergy here. we want to piece together cycles with compounds that will work in tandem with one another, not against. we also want to provide as much balance as possible to allow for people to get the most out of their cycles and their recovery, with fewer sides. that's the goal.
and, please don't take this the wrong way. i am in no way trying to argue with anyone. i am here to bring as many facts to the table as i can, so that whoever reads them can make informed decisions for themselves.