posted Sun, 10/08/2017 - 09:02
10416
+ 4 PCT plan
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STATS, DESCRIPTION, GOALS
Age: 28
5 ' 7 and around 84-85 kilos.
Running 750 mg test en at the moment and just finished 5 weeks of 30mg dbol ed.
Would like you guys to provide your input on my PCT plan
Week 1: 100mg clomid, 40mg nolvadex ED
Week 2: 50mg clomid, 30mg nolvadex ED
Week3: 50mg clomid, 20mg nolvadex ED
Week4: 50mg clomid, 10 mg nolvadex ED
Alongside i'll be running some igf and peps to enhance the recovery. May or may not run hcg prior to pct but would highly appreciate to read if hcg is needed for a better PCT
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Go hard or go home ;-)
I blame tren metabolites!
Ha I knew it!
Scally has 2 protocols, they evolved over time
CBBurr is referring to power pct which was coined by the excelmale guys if I remember correctly.
Scally's standard PCT was always 20MG per day
The power PCT suggested 20mg x2 daily
PCT for normal responders, otherwise healthy
Power PCT for those who have shot their HPGa
Dude, nobody cares what you have to say. Your an ASS!!
If your Point was he souldn’t be running Nolvadex as high as he was then people would have excepted that. Some would have even appreciated your input.
But that’s not how you did things.
& I have read all of Dr. Michael Scally’s work including power pct.
Just try not to be a DICK!! People are here to information not insults
Nope, Im not a dick
I told OP his pct was shit, maybe that was a little mean of me, maybe I should have thought of everyone's PCT state or estro levels when saying such a thing, I dunno!
Hey OP, if me calling your PCT sh!t was so upsetting or offensive that you also think I am a dick, I'm very apologetic.
Regardless, when presented with facts, most people said nope you're wrong, when the opposite is the truth really. That doesnt make me a dick no matter what you bash out at me on your keyboard. But you have insulted me a couple of times and called me names.... so.... calling a PCT sh!t versus calling people on the internet names... ?I dunno man, there's a case as far as I can see for suggestion that it's you who is being the dick here!
I still read Dr Scallys posts on meso.
He is a proponent of using both clomid and nolva, believes they work better together.
His opinion is that starting PCT before the exogenous test is out of the system is the number one cause of failed PCTs
Yeah and he is 100% right in my opinion. I think the controversy comes in when people start feeling unwell or measuring based on metabolites rather than blood levels that can actually bring down test etc.
Scally, Bill Roberts, the ExcelMale guys, Dr. Rand etc etc All really interesting people, massive knowledge
That's wrong. We are not talking about supraphys doses of AAS, we are talking about medications and the response the elicit on the system. So unfortunately, that's just plain wrong.
You can suggest anything you want CBBurr, but cookie-cutter information that is not based on any evidence whatsoever is sh!t. The same would apply to what I have said if it were not based on reality, but it is.
Read the info CBBurr, unless you do that your suggestions around anything I have said are completely redundant.
no
I am right.
Nolva for cancer is to stop the estrogen receptor at the mammary gland. Nothing to do with PCT. save those reports for a gyno thread
Oh right, so Nolva's inflluence on LH, FSH and estro is to be discounted?
Nope dude, you got it crooked.
But Im am not surprised, it's not the first time.
no, that is the influence we are counting on
You're saying that it might or might not influence estrogen, LH, FSH in men?
So you're saying.... you take this drug in hope of a certain influence????!!!!
Nolva for cancer is to block estrogen at the receptor in the breast, The LH and FSH and test/ e2 are secondary effects.
For PCT, those are obviously the primary effects we are going for.
Ok.... so... take the next step for me....
You take a drug.... it elicits certain pharmacokinetic and pharmacological effects...those effects are studied heavily in hormone therapies for cancer and male gonad issues... we learn what the chem does/how it works for estrogen in the body and in breast tissue and across HPG related hormonal systems in women/men and men respectively.
We then apply our knowledge to treatments for cancer, for HPGa issues........ but not for PCT..... a HPGa and estro/gyno concern......... because of....
because of what????
Right folks as a few people said the same sort of thing there are a couple of replies rolled into 1 here.
Please note: Does 40mg work? Yep... no dispute. What I am saying; we do not need 40mg's. It's that simple. We dont need it, when we take it, we are taking additional chems the body doesnt need, at extra expense and also, if susceptible, in a way that can elicit sides.
So this is what the real info/data/studies/real world applications say; if you have cancer, the typical dose, boxcutter guide from the pamphlet is 10mg-40mg
The doses look like this:
1. Highly advanced cancer that is spreading: 20mg typically, but in extremely aggressive cases it is up to 40mg only, in divided doses
2. Other cancers = 20mg usually post op/radio treat etc, but sometimes 30 mg in divided doses but thats after cutting out the cancer and radio treat
3. Maintenance/on the mend 20mg
4. Maintenance 10mg
4. Prevention for those at high risk= 5mg
The thing to know, is that this is estrogen exclusion therapy, excluding it completely from exerting it's influence on certain bodyparts of course. Aiming for maximum effect let's say,.
So if you factor down from exclusion therapy towards OP's level of use or what he wants to achieve in PCT, it's certainly not to levels of complete exclusion, but to prevent a rebound rise causing issues.
Another thing to note is that women tend to have somewhere around 7 times the level of estro that blokes will have. In terms of dose response, that is important given the dosing protocols out there primarily come from female cancer studies, although there are some for men too of course.But... either way we dont need to exclude estrogen, just to maintain normal levels, or thereabouts. So if you work back from that, you can start the dose at 40/30/20 or maybe even 10mg's depending on your individual metabolism of the drug and calculate an approx dose that's right for you.
Let's get serious... it's not possible really to justify needing a complete exclusion level dose, when your body does in fact actually need estrog at a certain level )
So that takes care of gyno, definitely less than 40 mg's, very probably less than 30mgs and more than likely somewhere between 10-20 migs will see you right.
But then we need to consider the gonads etc...
Whatever you calculate, you want to know if taking a high dose than the beginning 20(or 40 if you ha\ve advanced cancer) will get you to stead state quicker? Yes it does. But... does it illicit a 'clinical response' any quicker? No it doesnt....
There is no clinical advantage of a frontloaded dose (higher dose at the beginning if you want to argue semantics!)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2069877
I have a pdf of this if anyone wants to read it.
So if you then look at the little info we have on men in relation to I dunno, say TRT or sperm issues, or whatever, well consider this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/640052
Tamox will up LH but also ups estro at 10-20mgs....
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18692782
tamoxifen, 20 mg, once daily will give a significant bump in gonadotropins
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19381855
LH FSH and Testo will be solidly upped with just 20mg daily (more so true for people who have low fsh, rather than normal, suggesting it works up to a point)
So, 1) we dont need the OP's suggested 50mg. 2) We (presuming nobody reading has breast/chest cancer or is post op/treatment...) also dont need the cookie cutter 40mg. 3) 20mg in a depleted state will suffice. And; there is no in-body benefits to taking bigger doses, other than having higher serum levels.
So lads, 20 migs is where it's at, not 40, just because it says so on the internet forum (you could argue the same about what I've just said, but if you read the actual evidence its crystal clear)
I have a pdf of some of these if anyone wants to read em. I can email to anyone who is interested.
@giardap
Your level of knowledge on AAS or PCT is not fitting of an ADV Eroids tag
Incorrect.
Break it down for me as to why if you think that's the case??
Honestly the pct is fine, personally I wouldn't use 50mgs of nolva, but 10mgs more is not as bad as using to little. Although Ive read many times that theres no benefit going past 20mgs. The standard 100/100/50/50 40/40/20//20 has worked time and time again, why fuck with it? Nolva isnt perticularly good for you either, id try to use the least amount necessary.
I personally think hcg makes recovery far easier, your giving your leydig cells a shot of LH and keeping your system "awake" vs letting it lie dormant for the duration of the cycle. The studies ive seen on recovery shows the problem is not that the body doesnt produce adacuate LH, LH returns to normal pretty quickly. But ones leydig cells do not respond to the LH due to desensitiztion and it takes many weeks for them to start reconizing the signal. We can somewhat avoid this by using hcg as it does exactly what LH does, so the body doesnt forget.
And like oldermuscle said, aromasin would be a solid addition at a low dose of say 6.25mgs ed. High estrogen shuts down the HPTA, so keeping it lower will in turn help production.
Iron game sums it up.
You dont need quite the mg you posted, esp the first week.
I'd cut the doses a little.
HCG is often overkill, but I would add a little to just keep the testes working part time while on cycle.
There are lots and lots of ways to PCT, and everyone thinks their way is the right way. Giardia is very set in his ways and thinks tapers are wrong.
I've read lots from Dr Scally over at meso. He believes that clomid and nolva have a synergetic effect and work great together. That Dr also believes that for most simple test E cycles that 2 weeks after pin is too soon.
If it was me.... I'd use about 250iu of hcg weekly during the cycle, wait 3 weeks after last pin ( assuming basic test e cycle) and run the standard clomid nolva pct.
why do you say nolvadex isn't particularly good for you
Its been shown in studies to cause cancer of the uterus in women, the male equlivant of the uterus is the prostate.
Really? You have any links I can read
Blood clots and stroke is another, no idea what the rate is, but am sure you could find out
Check out the pamphlet next time you get a pharma nolv pack
If you read any of the studies on nolv in men there is always a huge drop off rate (I think 20% +) due to sides they cannot handle/get past. Hot flashes sticks in my mind, but there are lots of others.
Dropping some knowledge on them!! ++
Only thing I would consider is adding an AI like aromasin to this protocol. Not a big fan of Hcg but it won't hurt. And I'm not sure where the 50 of Nolvadex comes from.. maybe a research chem ? But that's not necessary. Start with 40.
Great input!! ++
You probably will not need HCG unless you have noticed testicular atrophy.
Your SERM’s protocol looks like it should work. Just remember the half life of enanthate & let the ester clear before pct.
I like to run hgh &/or igf1-lr3 on pct to counteract the igf lowering effect of Clomids.
+2
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Accepted
Your pct plan is sh!t