+ 6 NPP, Collagen, and the Heart You’re Not Thinking About (Press1 + IronGame427 this one’s for you)
I responded to both of you here: https://www.eroids.com/forums/steroids-qa/steroid-cycles/opinions-on-tes...
But since you know me Press1 i had to make this post best i could with links and other links, and my thoughts. Here you go Just for you for old time sake, with that old tone. So the F bomb will drop enjoy!!
Since you both been talking real about NPP, Deca, collagen, and all the shit nobody else wants to think about when they’re pinning and flexing in their bathroom mirror.
Let’s be blunt. The cardiac collagen stuff from Nandrolone isn’t some fearmongering gym myth. It’s fucking real. There’s multiple rodent studies that showed 234--356% spikes in heart collagen after Nandrolone, and it didn’t even take long. One of them showed it in just 2--4 weeks, with or without cardio (rats were swimming while we’re barely doing incline walks).
Now yeah. the rat doses were like 5--20mg/kg. But here’s the kicker:
We run lower doses… but we run it way longer. 5 years on and off, That’s not “safe” because it’s a smaller dose. That’s just chronic slow-motion risk.
And the fucked up part, One study tracked Nandrolone use and then watched what happened AFTER stopping. The Cardiac fibrosis got worse. Not better. Worse. Six weeks off, and collagen deposits didn’t go away, they stacked more. That’s not recovery, that’s your heart saying its done.
Now I’ve seen the talk about exercise “protecting” the heart while on NPP. Yeah, in one study it helped, but both the trained and untrained rats still had hydroxyproline spikes, which means collagen was still getting laid down. So cardio might slow the damage, but it doesn’t erase it. It’s like saying brushing your teeth lets you eat 6 bags of candy a day. Doesn’t work like that.
And then there’s Caber, right---- The go-to to keep prolactin in check on Deca. Guess what? Caber also causes cardiac fibrosis. Lmao. We’re literally fixing one side effect by adding a second drug that fucks the same organ.
You’re both right, NPP is a godsend for joints. I’ve used it too. It makes pressing feel like a warm hug and takes pain off the map. But if you need a compound to train, that’s a red flag. Joints feel like shit.....Fix your mobility, your form, your recovery. Don’t just mask it with a compound that might quietly be hardening your heart tissue while you’re chasing PRs.
Your heart ain’t a rebound muscle. You can’t peel off fibrosis like water weight.
If you must run NPP/Deca, protect your engine:
Telmisartan --- blood pressure + anti-fibrosis
Taurine (3g/day) --- BP control + cardiac stability
CoQ10 (200mg/day)--- heart function
Cialis (low dose) --- blood flow + endothelial health
Bloods every 3 months ---- and don’t skip the cardiac panels
Cycle off. This ain’t TRT.
@irongame427 Your clean echo 5 years off Nandrolone., that’s awesome. But echoes don’t show microfibrosis. Only MRI with contrast does. So it doesn’t mean you’re 100% clear, it just means nothing’s obvious yet.
Nandrolone does increase collagen. Fact.
Collagen in the heart = stiff muscle = worse output. Fact.
It’s not always reversible. Fact.
Exercise helps but doesn’t eliminate it. Fact.
Chronic low-dose = still risky. Fact.
We’ve all used it. Some of us still will. But if you’re gonna play the game, know the fucking rules. Your heart doesn’t care if you’re pain-free when it stops beating clean.
Nandrolone and resistance training induce heart remodeling: Role of fetal genes and implications for cardiac pathophysiology: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51616813_Nandrolone_and_resista...
Nandrolone Plus Moderate Exercise Increases the Susceptibility to Lethal Arrhythmias: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4576214/
IMPACT OF TGF-β FAMILY-RELATED GROWTH FACTORS ON CHONDROGENIC DIFFERENTIATION OF ADIPOSE-DERIVED STEM CELLS ISOLATED FROM LIPOASPIRATES AND INFRAPATELLAR FAT PADS OF OSTEOARTHRITIC PATIENTS: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5922762/
One rodent study combining nandrolone (20 mg/kg/wk) and resistance training showed 30% thickening of the left ventricle wall and a 261% rise in heart collagen---training reduced it by ~34% but didn’t prevent fibrosis entirely: The Effects of High Doses of Nandrolone Decanoate on Cardiac Muscle Tissue: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/303800308_The_Effects_of_High_D...
A similar group found cardiac hypertrophy and collagen elevation even at moderate doses: nandrolone + resistance training = pathology in LV structure and function: Nandrolone and resistance training induce heart remodeling: Role of fetal genes and implications for cardiac pathophysiology: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0024320511004012
Another model observed myocardial fibrosis and necrosis in 70% of steroid-treated animals versus control: https://jhrlmc.com/index.php/home/article/download/533/517
A broader review on AAS and cardiomyopathy shows direct links between high-dose steroid misuse and ventricular dysfunction, including both LV and RV fibrosis, with advanced molecular mechanisms detailed: Anabolic androgenic steroids and cardiomyopathy: an update https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/cardiovascular-medicine/articles/10...
- Bookmark
- 6
- 0
This is a serious wake-up call. The joint relief from NPP is tempting, but the heart risks are terrifying. Thanks for compiling the research and offering practical advice like Telmisartan and regular blood work. It's a harsh reality check. I've been thinking about mobility work recently and seeing this makes me realize that its more important now than ever, I might even play something like Crazy Cattle 3D to relax after a long day of mobility focused work outs. Seriously valuable info.
Great perspective, and honestly…this game has no free lunch. Every single compound comes with a price tag, whether it’s your lipids, your liver, your heart, your brain… you’re paying somewhere, somehow.
Testosterone is probably the safest when used correctly and monitored, but beyond that, it’s all a calculated gamble. Some people are genetically more resistant to sides, others get wrecked on minimal doses. It’s trial and error most of the time, and no protocol works the same for everyone.
That’s why personal responsibility is everything in this game. Do your research, know your body, and own your choices.
Appreciate you sharing your take … solid reminder for all of us.
You do have a knack of wording things well don't ya mate.
Just tryna wax on, wax off, sensei
Maybe I am just being thick here, but from what I am reading its basically saying that all steroids can cause Collagen deposits in the heart via promoting Angiotensin 2 which constricts the blood vessels? Not just Nandrolone.
You’re not being thick at all…you’re actually spot on. Angiotensin II is like the silent villain in the background, and sadly, most AAS seem to send him an invitation.
So yeah, it’s not just Nandrolone, pretty much any steroid can tip the RAAS axis and lead to cardiac remodeling (a fancy way of saying “collagen throws a house party in your heart”). Fibrosis isn’t exclusive to one compound; it’s a systemic risk when you’re chronically enhanced.
Now… how to fight it?
Well, that’s the eternal question.
Telmisartan? Solid choice, blocks the angiotensin II receptor and improves insulin sensitivity. Nebivolol? Great for blood pressure with nitric oxide upregulation, it’s bonus points.Low dose Cialis? You already know vasodilation, endothelial function, morning wood. Win-win. Cardio, clean diet, sleep, managing stress, not blasting Tren for 40 weeks… all help. But even if we do all that? It’s still like playing chess with Death…just buying time with good moves. Or do you think I’m wrong about that ?
I joke, but yeah…I actually do want to live longer and better. That’s why I’m trying to stay on track.
A few other players worth mentioning to combat fibrosis: Nattokinase, serrapeptase. lumbrokinase, and bromelain (all need to be enteric coated to be effective). Stack them with rutin and AMLA for a synergistic enhancement. These are anti-fibrotic(studies have shown significant impact on pulmonary, renal, and liver fibrosis, but the impact on TGF-β1/Smad pathway implies a widespread anti-fibrotic impact), will improve cardiovascular plaque, blood pressure, bloodflow, anti-thrombotic, and many more impacts. I've found for me they are helpful in keeping hematocrit in check, as well. I take them daily on an empty stomach.
Damn bro, that was probably the most poetic fucking breakdown of angiotensin II I’ve ever read, "collagen throws a house party in your heart" needs to be a damn warning label on vials at this point.
And nah, you’re not wrong at all. You’re actually saying what most won’t: AAS shifts your whole internal system, not just your test levels. The RAAS axis gets twisted, blood pressure climbs quietly, and before you know it, fibrosis is building drywall in your ventricles while you’re flexing in the mirror thinking you're invincible.
You nailed it, this ain't just a Nandrolone problem. High-dose Test, Tren, EQ... all of 'em can nudge the heart toward remodeling. Chronic elevation of angiotensin II, increased oxidative stress, sympathetic overdrive, it all stacks. And most guys never even look at their BP, let alone angiotensin levels.
You're right too, Telmisartan is clean. PPAR-γ activation, insulin sensitivity boost, anti-fibrotic punch. Nebivolol’s legit, especially for heart rate and endothelial support. And low-dose Cialis, Bro, that’s the holy grail trinity: heart, blood flow, and bedroom all win.
But yeah… we’re all playing chess with Death. Best we can do is make smarter fing moves, so we’re not checkmated at 42 because we ignored cardiac markers chasing a 20-inch arm. Dont worry ive made it past 42 lol
So no, you’re not being dramatic. You’re being real. And the fact that you care enough to even talk about it... That’s the mindset that actually adds years,not just reps.
Keep playing the game smart. Just don’t forget, it’s still a game with stakes.
I'd be throwing thumbs all over the place but I'm currently out guys - not being ignorant
How does Telmisartan protect against heart fibrosis then?
Ahh okay:
Telmisartan, an angiotensin II receptor blocker (ARB), protects against heart fibrosis by targeting multiple pathways involved in the development of fibrosis. It primarily works by blocking the effects of angiotensin II, a hormone that promotes cardiac remodeling and fibrosis. Additionally, telmisartan can activate PPAR-γ, an anti-inflammatory and anti-fibrotic receptor, and modulate other pathways involved in collagen production and inflammation. (Google Doodle)
Looks like Losartan also does the same thing too - its saying in some cases it has been shown to reverse fibrosis of the heart too.
Yeah bro exactly, Telmisartan hits heart fibrosis like a damn sniper, not a shotgun. It’s an ARB, sure, but what makes it different from stuff like Losartan is that Telmisartan also activates PPAR-γ, which is basically a switch that tells your heart, chill the fuck out on inflammation and collagen build-up.
So yeah, it blocks angiotensin II (the hormone that triggers stiffening and remodeling), but then goes further by hitting that PPAR-γ pathway, which is anti-inflammatory and straight-up anti-fibrotic. That dual action makes it more than just a BP drug, it’s like off-cycle armor for guys who’ve been smashing gear for years and don’t want to end up with a stiff-ass heart at 40.
Losartan does some of the same stuff, yeah,but Telmisartan's longer half-life and stronger PPAR-γ activation gives it a solid edge if you're actually trying to prevent or even reverse damage while blasting.
Dimensional Effects on Densities of States and Interactions in Nanostructures: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2956029/
Nice, Got ya buddy!! I will look to buy some Telmisartan as I don't particulalry like the feeling of Losartan anyway.
I wish I would have seen this earlier. I just stocked up on a bunch of Deca 500mg and never would have bought it after reading this post. Thanks for the info
Thanks Zewi - here's me just serving up my Tea and I don't feel hungry anymore!!! LMAO
I don’t really care for tea but I love all those little delicious snacks you Brits eat during tea time lol. Especially the scones with clotted cream. I got my wife to start making scones and hers are pretty damn good.
I often confuse people with this term mate - we also say Tea for Dinner/Supper meal time when we eat. I also don't like drinking Tea either, which is almost sacrilage to say in the UK as you can guess as 99% of people drink it all day long Lol Never understood the obsession with hot water, milk and sugar, if I am thirsty I like fruit juice or similar. Ohh yeah afternoon Tea or a 'Brew' with scones and tea cakes is a big event over here - christ many people will go to a restauraunt to do it and spend a lot of money on it.
Well that makes no sense at all lol. You guys usually do a pretty good job naming stuff to where it makes sense. I was out to eat with some clients from the UK not long ago and one of them was like, why do you guys call it a bathroom, you aren’t taking a bath. We say we’re going to the toilet, which is what we’re doing. I had to concede that the toilet does make more sense than bathroom.
Lol!!!
Sorry Buddy - was just reading through yours and @irongame427 responses on the original post as I didn't see you had both responded as you probably guessed. Thanks a lot for this post - all very frightening stuff to be honest
Guess you may as well put up an RIP Press post while you are at it too! LMAO