Opinions on test, deca, eq, gh cycle
This will be my 6th cycle. I've used test and deca together before. I've also done test, deca and primo which i had intended to do again. But Meta pharma cut and run then my primo order with pmroids ended up being back ordered. So i have a bunch of eq in my drawer from a freebie ZPHC hooked me up with. The goal here is to put on some lean tissue and strength with minimal added fat.
What my guide has helped me come up with is
16-18 weeks total
600 test c
300 deca
500 eq
8-10 iu gh
I'll get blood work around 4-5 weeks in. Then again 6-8 weeks later depending on how i feel/sides. Deca and EQ will get stopped 2-3 weeks before i drop back down to trt dosing. This will give me a solid 4-6 weeks to get my levels back down to the norm for my trt doc bloods. Unless i start becoming an emotional little girl every time a sad abused puppy commercial comes on i'll follow my blood work for using an AI. I'll be doing daily shots and the GH will all be done right before bedtime.
I've read conflicting things about this combo. Some guys seem to love the trio together. Others say not to mix deca and eq. The deca was originally only intended to give a bit of love to my joints while i'm pushing it. 300 mg/week is def a bit over that level but if it helps me i'm fine with it. I'll be in a calorie surplus the entire time. My current maintenance is about 2800-2900. I'll start at 3200 and adjust from there as needed.
Anyone have any experience with the combo? I'm open to all input here.
- Bookmark
- 0
- 0
You’ve got six cycles under your belt and you're still thinking , love to see it. Most guys by now are just chasing pumps and praying they don’t start lactating.
Let’s break this down like a boss:
600mg Test C – Solid. That’s the backbone. Brings size, strength, libido.
300mg Deca – at 300mg, it’s full-on joint armor. You’re not microdosing recovery , you’re tapping into that wet, thick fullness. Good for size, not great for cardio or emotions if you’re prone to weepy puppy commercials.
500mg EQ – The freebie EQ special. Always the mystery meat of cycles. Slow gains, dry look, and an appetite spike that could have you clearing out Costco. That said , EQ and Deca can work together, but here’s the catch:
Both hit the progestin side in their own way.
Both can affect libido and mood when not balanced right.
And EQ will creep up your RBC and hematocrit like a silent assassin.
You run both and you better be pulling blood work and maybe blood from your arm for donation. TRT doc won’t care about your gains if your blood is thick as molasses.
8–10 IU GH – Respect. That’s not anti-aging GH, that’s “I’m chasing gods” GH. If it’s legit, expect IGF-1 sky high, deeper sleep, and maybe numb fingers at night. You’re playing in the upper league with this dose. Just monitor blood sugar. Keep Metformin or berberine in your back pocket if things get sticky.
It’s aggressive but not stupid.
But I’d tweak it slightly for more synergy and less overlap:
Here’s your adjusted cycle IMO:
Weeks 1–16:
Test C – 600mg/week
EQ – 600mg/week
GH – 8 IU split (4IU AM fasted, 4IU pre-bed)
Aromasin or Arimidex on bloods, not feelz.
Weeks 1–12:
NPP – 300mg/week (instead of Deca – shorter ester = faster clearance, easier to manage side effects, better around TRT blood planning)
If no NPP, fine keep Deca — just stop by Week 13.
Weeks 17–18:
Drop EQ and NPP/Deca
Continue Test and taper to TRT dose (150–200mg)
GH stays consistent
Bloods:
Week 5 (Check E2, prolactin, hematocrit, lipids)
Week 10–12 (Adjust AI if needed, plan your cruise)
Diet looks dialed.
Starting at 3200 is smart. Adjust based on scale, mirror, and strength. Just don’t turn into a bulk bro eating pizza and calling it a “carb up.” EQ will have you starving like you just finished a fast. Keep it clean.
Final thought:
You’re not doing anything dumb, but EQ + Deca together, not bad, but they compete. You’re better off picking one and letting it do its job. If joints are the concern, NPP wins. If you want dry, vascular growth, let EQ take the wheel.
Otherwise, get the bloods, log the cycle, and enjoy the ride. You’re not natty, stop pretending this needs to be complicated.
I would rather collect as much info as i can and then try to make the best choice i can when doing something that can potentially cause negative issues with my health. If this was 20 years ago i'd probably have just gone balls to the wall and screw the consequences. I absolutely have had to run .5 adex EOD when using deca in the past. I know for some people eq has AI properties but since i haven't tried before i dont know if i'm one of them. I didn't find primo to have a huge effect in that regard but that doesn't mean another compound won't have that benefit.
I'm absolutely planning on donating blood every 8 weeks here. My RBC and hematocrit is typically at the top of or just over the top of the reference range unfortunately. I do have a blood pressure monitor at home i use. But i'd judge when to start donating based on the initial 4-5 week blood work. I'm eligible to go whenever as it's been over 8 weeks since my last donation. I actually have plenty of npp at home. I've used it before with test p for a quick 8 week cycle and had good results with very few negative sides. It probably would be better to use that incase there are any issues with the eq and nandrolone combo. That would clear much quicker if needed.
Any suggestions on how to manage progesterone if that becomes an issue? I've never actually had a problem with it so i haven't done more than a cursory skim on the topic. After reading the guy below i was thinking of maybe dropping the nandrolone down to 100 mg/week strictly for my joints. The idea of getting all i can out of as little as i can is appealing. Is there a reason why you suggest splitting the gh dose? I've tried both and haven't really noticed a difference in how i feel or recover.
The fact you’ve already got a blood pressure cuff, you're donating regularly, and you've seen firsthand what Adex does for you, that’s next level compared to 90% of lifters out here chasing dream cycles and ducking their labs like it’s a court date.
NPP vs Deca vs EQ
You nailed it: NPP is the smarter play here, especially if you’re experimenting with EQ for the first time. It clears quicker, gives you a way out if anything gets weird, and you’ve already responded well to it. If EQ ends up not playing nice with your mood or RBC, you can pull it and still keep the structure of your cycle intact.
Dropping Nand to 100mg/week for joint support, brilliant. That’s TRT-style nandrolone support without stepping into libido-crushing, prolactin-spiking territory. If you feel great on that and your joints stop screaming, you might’ve just found your sweet spot.
Progesterone Management
Now on the progesterone question, good move asking before you need it. Here’s the quick breakdown:
Progesterone sides (lethargy, mood swings, libido drop, gyno even with low E2) are often tied more to prolactin sensitivity than actual high progesterone levels.
If it ever becomes an issue:
-- Cabergoline or Prami are your go-to dopamine agonists to bring prolactin down.
--Caber is easier to tolerate, usually 0.25mg twice a week if needed — just go low and slow.
Also worth noting: EQ doesn’t directly affect prolactin but when paired with a 19-nor like Deca/NPP, some guys just get moodier. So good call keeping that in check.
GH Split Dose
As for the GH split — you’re right. The noticeable “feel” difference for most guys is marginal. But the split dose logic is this:
AM fasted GH = spikes natural IGF-1, may help with fat burning and lipolysis if diet/cardio is dialed.
PM dose (pre-bed) = closer to natural GH rhythm, supports deeper sleep, recovery, cellular repair.
But yeah, if you're not seeing a difference and bloods/IGF-1 are solid, then no need to fix what ain’t broken. Some guys just prefer the single 8 IU hit at night and that’s fine, you’ve earned the right to run what you respond to.
You’re doing everything right — planning, questioning, adapting, and not ego-lifting your way through compounds. If you stick with EQ + low-dose NPP, keep your GH consistent, and monitor bloods like you are, this’ll be one of those rare cycles that actually builds muscle without turning into a medical experiment.
Keep the NPP on standby. Watch hematocrit. Play with the dose only when needed. You’re not chasing toxicity — you’re chasing precision. Respect for thinking like a vet, not just pinning like a rookie.
Here is my dialed-in, phased-in EQ/NPP protocol:
Weeks 1–6: Ramp-In Foundation
Let EQ load slowly (it’s long ester), get test stable, and prime your system.
Test C or E – 600mg/week
EQ – 300mg/week (intro dose)
NPP – 100mg/week (joint support + anabolic kick)
Aromasin – 6.25mg E3D (adjust after bloods)
GH – 4 IU AM fasted or 2/2 split AM/PM
Supps: NAC, baby aspirin (81mg), fish oil
---This phase gives EQ time to build and lets you test your body’s reaction to NPP at a support dose. Great for checking mood, prolactin sensitivity, RBC impact, etc.
Weeks 7–12: Primary Growth Phase
Test – stay at 600mg/week
EQ – bump to 600mg/week
NPP – increase to 200mg/week if no sides (or stay at 100mg if joints are good)
Aromasin – adjust based on E2 (labs from week 6)
GH – 6–8 IU total, split dose optional
Optional Add-On:
Proviron – 25–50mg/day for added SHBG binding, dryness, and mild AI boost
--- This is where you’ll grow. Appetite will climb. Strength will rise. Just keep an eye on hematocrit, BP, and libido.
--Weeks 13–16: Cruise Landing Phase
Test – taper to TRT dose (150–200mg/week)
Drop NPP and EQ entirely
GH – stay consistent
AI – lower or pause depending on bloods and E2 levels
Pull bloods week 15 to check where you land
Donate blood if RBC/hematocrit are still high
--- This “landing phase” gives your body time to stabilize before TRT bloods or deciding next move (rebound, cut, cruise, etc).
---- Bloodwork Timing
Week 5: Check E2, prolactin, hematocrit, liver/lipids
Week 10: Fine-tune AI, NPP dose, check if EQ needs pulled or reduced
Week 15: See if you’re cruising clean for TRT or prep phase
----Optional: Rebound or Cut After
Once you finish this 16-weeker and cruise for 8–10 weeks, you’ll be primed to either cut hard with Mast/Winstrol or rebound with Primo/Dbol (low-dose, high-quality growth rebound).
Im going to ask here instead of through a PM so the info is readily available to anyone down the road who's researching a similar cycle.
Why start with a half dose of EQ for the first 6 weeks and then bump into full for the second 6 weeks when EQ takes so long to actually hit full saturation in the blood? My understanding is it's something like 4+ weeks to really start to hit it's stride. That would leave me with maybe 2-3 weeks at full concentration before pulling it from the cycle.
Smart question, and it deserves a proper breakdown, especially for the guys reading this later trying to build a cycle that doesn’t feel like bro-science glued together with trend posts.
And since this is all about education i have a reference links below, some are older links some new but again been in the game a long time but wanted to provide some studies and articles for better understanding.
Why Start EQ at Half-Dose?
You're 100% right about EQ having a long ester (Undecylenate), and yes, it takes ~4–6 weeks to reach steady-state blood levels. That’s exactly why I start early, but at a reduced dose, not full throttle. Let me explain:
The Logic: Front-End Caution, Not Delay
EQ ramps slowly, yes..... but so do its side effects: rising RBC, creeping hematocrit, slow mood shifts, subtle BP elevation.
Starting with 600mg from Week 1 means you’ve got stacked Test, NPP, and EQ all hitting hard around Week 5–6, and if EQ hits you wrong, you’ve got no exit plan. Long ester = long wait if it sucks.
By starting EQ at 300mg, you let it build slowly, let your body adjust, and it buys you time to monitor labs and sides without forcing a blood donation by Week 7.
Once you know you’re tolerating it fine (RBC in check, BP stable, mood good), you ramp up and ride that out for a clean 6–8 week full-saturation phase.
EQ Undecylenate has a half-life of ~14 days, meaning:
It takes 4–6 half-lives (i.e., 8–12 weeks) to hit full steady-state saturation if pinned weekly
Starting lower allows accumulation without the side-effect “wall” slamming you in Week 5 when everything peaks at once.
Your Test and NPP are already bringing heat early, pumps, fullness, strength. You don’t need EQ blasting out the gates on top of that. EQ’s role is to stack strength, appetite, vascularity, and mild anabolic support, not to be the one leading the way from the strart.
Want to Ramp Faster you can here you go.
You can front-load EQ (double dose in Week 1–2) if you’ve already run it before and you know your body tolerates it.
Example:
Week 1: 900mg
Week 2: 600mg
Week 3–12: 600mg steady
That will get you closer to saturation faster, but you’re playing with fire if hematocrit or BP go sideways.
This isn’t about “just getting it in your system.” It’s about controlling compound synergy, managing cumulative toxicity, and giving yourself pivot points in case something goes wrong. Anyone can blast gear. Few know how to balance it.
You can always bump a dose. You can't always un-fuck your blood pressure.
But i like giving cycles---done it a long time so here you go now that i see what your aiming for better:
Accelerated Ramp Phase
Test C or E – 600mg/week
EQ – 900mg/week for Weeks 1–2 (front-load), then **600mg/week from Week 3 onward
NPP – 100mg/week
Aromasin – 6.25mg E3D
GH – 4 IU split AM/PM
Proviron – 25mg/day (optional early lean polish + mild AI support)
Supps – NAC, baby aspirin (81mg), fish oil, electrolytes
You’ll feel EQ kick in harder around Week 3–4 vs Week 5–6 with the original plan. Appetite should increase, pumps tighten up, and aggression in the gym starts rising.
Weeks 5–10: Lean Bulk Phase
Test – 600mg/week
EQ – 600mg/week
NPP – 150–200mg/week (only bump if joints need it or recovery stalls)
GH – 6 IU split (3 AM fasted / 3 pre-bed)
Aromasin – adjust based on mid-cycle bloods
Proviron – up to 50mg/day if libido or SHBG needs the support
Optional Add-on (Week 7–10):
Anavar – 25mg/day for added strength, fullness, and dry look before prep
EQ + GH synergy is now in full swing. Recovery will be faster, vascularity increases, and appetite stays high, ideal for clean lean mass building with minimal fat gain.
Bloodwork Timing (Non-Negotiable)
Week 5 Labs:
E2, prolactin, RBC, hematocrit, ALT/AST, lipids
Week 10 Labs:
Evaluate cruise/continue transition... prep or deload options
Weeks 11–16: Prep Transition Phase ("Cut-in-Cycle")
This is where you start trimming the fat, drying out, and preserving that new size before switching to full contest cut protocol.
Test – drop to 400mg/week (leaner look, less water retention)
EQ – keep at 600mg/week
Drop NPP (unless joints absolutely need it, otherwise, gone)
GH – keep at 6–8 IU/day
Add Mast E – 400mg/week (Weeks 11–16)
Optional:
T4 – 25mcg/day (if you’re on GH and want better fat mobilization)
Clen – 20–40mcg/day if bodyfat is stuck
This shifts the cycle into recomp mode without a hard “stop.” Mast dries you out, GH ramps lipolysis, and EQ maintains fullness and endurance. You’ll look leaner and fuller going into prep than if you cut cold turkey.
Diet Tweaks Through the Phases:
Ramp Phase ----- Clean surplus (+300–500 cals/day)
Bulk Phase----- Push cals with quality (red meat, rice, oats, oils)
Prep Phase-----Drop fats slightly, bump protein, reduce carbs slowly
(never drop carbs to zero on GH, you'll flatten out fast)
You now have a full, EQ-centered protocol that ramps fast, grows clean, and transitions into prep without ever slamming the brakes. No hormonal chaos, no overblown RBC, and no wasted weeks "waiting for it to kick in."
This is how pro-level structure works, smooth transitions, no crash, maximum return.
References:
Pharmacokinetics studies: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK557744/, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK12815/
Sex hormone-binding globulin regulation of androgen bioactivity in vivo: validation of the free hormone hypothesis: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5066276/
Proviron and DHT: Unlocking the Power of Dihydrotestosterone for Physique & Libido: https://swolverine.com/blogs/blog/proviron-and-dht-unlocking-the-power-o...
How Does Proviron Work? Mechanism, Benefits, and Hormonal Impact: https://swolverine.com/blogs/blog/how-does-proviron-work-mechanism-benef...
Effects of Growth Hormone on Glucose, Lipid, and Protein Metabolism in Human Subjects: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19240267/
Effects of Growth Hormone on Glucose, Lipid, and Protein Metabolism in Human Subjects: Endocrine Reviews, Volume 30, Issue 2, 1 April 2009, Pages 152–177: https://academic.oup.com/edrv/article-abstract/30/2/152/2355062
Equipoise Cycle: Results, Dosage, and Side Effects: ttps://muscleandbrawn.com/anabolics/equipoise-cycle/
How Long Does Equipoise Stay in Your Body: https://swolverine.com/blogs/blog/how-long-does-equipoise-stay-in-your-b...
My man thank you. I'm going to start with the slower protocol here just to make sure everything is good. I'm going to save the other options for future use if this goes well. Unfortunately my prostate and masteron don't really get along. I tried it once and I was getting up to go to the bathroom 6+ times every night and it really destroyed my sleep quality. I was looking forward to the mood elevation people talk about with it but it just isn't to be.
Thanks again. That was a hell of an answer and now I've got a fair bit of reading material I'm going to have to dive into when I get a chance.
I actually have caber already. Like i said i had done some reading in the past and that must have been something mentioned when using deca so i grabbed some just in case. I also already take NAC and fish oil daily. So i'd just need to add the baby aspiriin. On top of that i take 5mg of cialis daily to help with BP. I tend to run a bit higher and i love the vascularity it gives.
I'm currently at 6.6 iu and will be moving up to 7.2 this evening. I wanted to be up at at 8 when i started the cycle. I couldn't find anything that sounded to be a downside to having the gh higher right off the bat while everything else was still saturating my system. I'm a really poor responder to gh in terms of IGF levels. Even the 6-7 iu i've worked up to previously only got me to the upper end of the reference range. My baseline was right at the bottom of the range. I still get really fast recovery, better sleep and improved hair/skin/nails so it's not all bad. I'd really like to experience this level of gh where the "fat just melts off" that people talk about. But with how poor of a responder i am i'm guessing that will be a pretty large dose.
Yo bro, now you’re just showing off. You’re doing more right than 95% of the dudes out here pinning gear off Craigslist with no clue what a prolactin panel even is.
Caber already on standby:
NAC, fish oil, Cialis daily
BP under watch and dialed in
You’re not cycling, you’re running a damn hormone clinic from home. Respect.
On the GH:
You're not wrong, some guys are just low responders to GH when it comes to IGF-1 conversion. Could be genetic, could be receptor sensitivity, could be downstream signaling. Hell, some people absorb GH like it’s candy, others burn money at 8 IU/day and barely crack 300 ng/mL IGF-1.
You’re getting the benefits though, sleep, recovery, skin, hair, etc.
Let’s be honest, most of those shredded GH gods are also on:
T3/T4
Clen
Insulin (timed perfectly)
A dialed-in carb cycle
And possibly photoshop
So don’t fall into the trap of thinking more GH = magic fat loss unless the diet, timing, and support compounds are there.
Tips for Low GH Responders:
Split your dose into 3 IU AM fasted + 4 IU pre-bed, this mimics natural rhythm and could possibly give you better IGF-1 response vs one big hit.
Add T4 at 25–50mcg/day. GH suppresses TSH, and without T4 support, fat loss can stall and IGF-1 won’t climb like it should. This is a big one that people miss.
Get fasting insulin and glucose checked. If your insulin sensitivity is off, GH won’t hit the way it should. GH is anti-insulin, that’s why guys with high fasting insulin often get less out of it and just feel tired.
Don’t Chase High IU Just to Feel “It”:
GH at 8+ IU/day isn’t automatically better , it’s more stressful on blood sugar, more likely to cause edema, and more expensive than a weekend in Vegas. If you’re already seeing benefits and your IGF is at the top end of the range? That’s still a win.
If you really want to chase the fat-burning phase:
Dial in fasted AM cardio on GH
Use T4 and caffeine pre-cardio
And stay consistent, GH is a slow cooker, not a microwave
My final thoughts:
You’re already operating at a pro-level protocol. You’ve got the tools, the monitoring, the patience , now it’s just about dialing the last 10% and not chasing ghosts. The “GH magic” everyone talks about...... It’s mostly a combo of GH, thyroid, insulin timing, and a brutal cut. And sometimes it’s just great lighting and low carbs.
You’re almost there , don’t fall into the trap of more = better.
Slin is super confusing, it can cause fat storage but also help with cut depending on who you ask.
Do you feel t4 makes any sense to take if you’re already on t3?
Well crap. Every post you make i realize i left out something else in my medicine cabinet or that i'm already taking. I'm actually prescribed 50mcg of levothyroxine per day by my trt doc. My tsh levels were high though my t4 and t3 were both within range. That's a more recent thing he did after my last bloodwork. I'm guessing that my tsh is high due to the fact that i've been running gh at a lower dose for roughly a year. Still a bit early to tell how well it's working. My tsh levels will be getting checked when i do my own bloodwork just to see.
I have no interest in ever trying t3, clen or insulin. I'm never going to hop on stage. I just want to look and feel better. So going crazy isn't something i'm willing to do. I really appreciate the responses man. You've been really helpful. I'm going to send you a friend request because i'm sure i'll have some questions i'd like ask as some point.
I've gotta say the best thing about this site is how genuinely helpful most people are. 90% + of the people here are just nice guys who are either wanting to learn or looking to help those who are looking to learn. it's awesome.
Jesus man, do you write books or for magazines or something? This is like a paper or article someone did on something.
And you must use voice typing?
You didn't copy and paste this from muscular development or that chat gbt shit or whatever is called did u? Lol. Nah that's what's up u putting in so much effort.
I've been around a long time. I have time now to come back here and share my knowledge. Glad i can help.
Cool bro, your writing also, not just your info. That's what really has me like wow. Am i reading an article? Lol
You Def have a gift for it. Good bless
Great write ups, both of your posts make me feel like I'm reading a Dr. James video transcript.
Thank you, I've been around the block a few times
anvilYeah you sound way to familiar..like someone that got kicked outta here under a different name or maybe you are a blessing to the community.
Yes to both, I can definitely say that.
Older, more dialed-in, and finally got the patience to give back without getting banned for going nuclear on someone. Let’s just say I’m less angry, more strategic these days. Still got the fire... just aiming it better now.
I don’t think you need anywhere that much gear or that many compounds based on your current stats. I get it though, we progress in this game and think each new cycle I need to add more compounds and up the doses, but that’s just not the case. I did it back in the day too. I eventually smartened up and pulled back and kinda went back to the basics.
At most I’d pick 1, EQ at 500 or deca at 300. Or just run test and GH. With your diet truly dialed in you’ll grow like a weed on 600mgs of test an 8-10iu of growth. Have you ran GH of a dose? I did for a while. My feet are a full size bigger than they were before I started. Pretty sure my hands are bigger too, and I’m 99% my nose was not this big before I started higher doses of GH lol.
You're probably right about not needing quite so much. I love how great my joints feel in nandrolone. But I am curious to try the EQ as well. I've run gh before but never over 6-7 iu. I actually think my feet did get a little bigger as I've had to up my new shoe size by a half size the last couple pairs I bought.
I've got a little time to mull this over which is why I'm getting more opinions. I appreciate the feedback.
I train with an older IFBB pro. He Walks around in the offseason still what I’d consider shredded, no more than 8% bf at 5,9 250lb. His off season bulker is almost always the same, 750 test, 400-600eq, 5-6iu of growth. He’s so much bigger than us it’s not even funny. When we first started training together 10 years ago I was pretty embarrassed that I was on more gear than him lol. So I quickly started running much lower dosed cycles at that point. And still grew at the same rate. I figure I should always be on much less than him, considering I’m smaller and I don’t compete. We used to order together so It was pretty easy to confirm what he was telling me was true. It’s more about the food on a bulker. You need some drugs, but not nearly as much as you think. You just need a ton of good food.
I hear you on nandrolone for the joints. Deca/NPP was my favorite compound. My joints feel great on it. But once you start really digging into nandrolones effects on the heart it makes you want to steer clear of it. I haven’t decided if I’ll ever incorporate it again even at a low dose for joints, like 100mg a week. It’s probably not bad at that dose. These days some TRT clinics are prescribing it at up to 200mg. Not that they really care about their patients health though.
Finally found it!!! I've been digging through your comments mate to find this one again, I've seen this before also about NPP and Deca causing collagen deposits in the heart - which is obviously going to then lead to all sorts of problems. I am beginning to find this quite concerning as I am always running NPP due to the joint help it gives (mainly for my shoulders and RC's) and the useful strength increases. I run it in moderate doses and tbh it would be hard for me to lift heavy without it, my training frequency would also suffer considerably if I were to leave it out. With Testosterone it seems that when going on to TRT the heart does somewhat shrink in size and changes in ejection fraction can be reversed, but with Collagen deposits is this then something you are just stuck with for life when its happened? Surely this would then have contributed to a lot of guys having Heart Attacks over the years as the heart will become stiffened in nature and cannot pump as well.
I know there is a study out there that has observed this in mice, but when I have discussed this with people in the past they say that the equivelant dose in a human that was studied would amount to over 1 gram per week. Whats you proper take on it all?
Yeah bro, the collagen deposit stuff with NPP/Deca isn’t just gym gossip. It’s real, and it ain’t pretty. You’re right, rodent models showed cardiac fibrosis, thickened ventricular walls, and lowered ejection fraction. And yeah, the dose in rats was like 1.2g/week human equivalent, but here’s the kicker, we don’t actually know the threshold in humans. Our hearts aren’t magically immune just because we pinned 300mg not 1000.
Nandrolone does increase collagen synthesis, that’s why your joints feel like butter and your RCs stop screaming. But collagen doesn’t just go to your elbows, bro. If the heart walls start stiffening, You’ve got diastolic dysfunction loading in the background while you’re repping 4 plates.
Test can reverse some of that left ventricle thickening on TRT, yeah. But once collagen gets laid down in cardiac tissue, That shit sticks. You can maybe slow progression, but you’re not peeling it off like a sticker.
Use NPP sparingly. Rotate it. Run Taurine, Telmisartan, low-dose Cialis, and CoQ10 to keep pressure, flow, and mitochondrial health in check. Or pin NPP forever and play Russian roulette with your heart.
IMPACT OF TGF-β FAMILY-RELATED GROWTH FACTORS ON CHONDROGENIC DIFFERENTIATION OF ADIPOSE-DERIVED STEM CELLS ISOLATED FROM LIPOASPIRATES AND INFRAPATELLAR FAT PADS OF OSTEOARTHRITIC PATIENTS : https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5922762/
these peer-reviewed studies back up the cardiac collagen‑deposit concerns about Nandrolone/Deca:
A rat study showed 234–356% increase in heart collagen content within 2–4 weeks of nandrolone administration—with or without swimming training, along with significant left ventricle thickening and reduced diastolic function:
https://www.mdpi.com/2075-1729/12/8/1242
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51616813_Nandrolone_and_resista...
Another experiment found that nandrolone (20 mg/kg weekly) increased cardiac collagen by ~261%, and the combination with training led to ~30% thickening of the LV wall and structural remodeling.
Resistance‑training plus nandrolone also increased pathological LV hypertrophy and collagen deposition, impairing systolic and diastolic performance
Heart Reaction to Nandrolone Decanoate plus Two Different Intensities of Endurance Exercise: Electrocardiography and Stereological Approach https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5922762/
The rodent data is consistent and concerning—nandrolone induces excess collagen in the cardiac extracellular matrix.
Structural heart changes, once collagen builds up, are not easily reversible, even if testosterone helps reduce chamber size on TRT.
Human data is lacking, but the mechanisms (ACE activation, cytokine shifts, fibrosis) are biologically plausible and backed by animal models.
So yes, your concern is grounded in actual observed effects.
There’s definitely a lack of data available on this. Most of it is on rats, and most focus on the effects while on nandrolone, not after coming off. And, most of the doses are quite high like you said. Usually around 20mg/kg bw per week. Most of us are taking between 2-6mg/kg of bw so that’s quite a big difference. There is 1 study that I’ve seen that focused on the reversibility of these effects after discontinuing nandrolone but they didn’t really go long enough. I think they were probably trying to prove that the effects weren’t reversible. Their conclusion was that it was actually worse 6 weeks after discontinuing it. But id want to know after 6 months, a year, 2 years etc, not weeks. But one thing on this study is it says the dose administered was a whopping 30g/kg of bw, not mg, but grams. That has to be an error. But who’s not proof reading a study that’s going to be published in the medical journals? That’s insane. It’s gotta be 30mg. Which is still ridiculous high, that’s nearly 3 grams a week for someone my weight. But they only ran it for between 1-3 months. That’s a bit different than people like us running it on and off for years.
Then there was one study I found really interesting that compared rats on nandrolone with and without exercise. Still higher doses than we’d typically take at 5mg/kg twice a week, but atleast closer. Both had increased levels of hydroxyproline signifying an increase in collagen, but they found the rats who exercised did not experience cardiac remodeling. Their conclusion was exercise prevented it. Both endurance training and HIT had the same positive effects in this regard. It did not prevent LVH though, which isn’t surprising. But maybe our consistent workouts are preventing collagen Deposits. Especially considering we’re usually on lower doses than the rats in the study,
There’s a handful of drugs used to reverse collagen deposits. Perhaps a drug targeting the reduction in collegian production could be used while on nandrolone. Although i don’t know if it’s capable of just target the heart. Decreasing collagen production throughout the body would probably be bad news for our joints.
A good comparison would be drug induced cardiac fibrosis. There’s a handful of medications that have been shown to cause this. Caber is actually one of them unfortunately. I’d be interested in what happened after discontinuing those drug, as it would very similar to coming off nandrolone. I haven’t really seen any studies on this though, but I also haven’t looked that hard.
I’ll add is some anecdotal evidence. I had a full cardiac workup done last summer. This was like 5 years off nandrolone. Had an echocardiogram done, which wouldnt necessarily see cardiac fibrosis, but it would absolutely detect the decrease in cardiac output and any abnormalities in my heart which it would cause. And then also wore a monitor 24/7 for 2 weeks, plus an EKG. And the doctors exact words at the end of it all were “your heart is perfect”. No issues at all. Did I not experience any cardiac remodeling from years on nandrolone, or did it reverse itself after being off for so long? I don’t know the answer to that.
There was another study on men at TRT level doses, but it was very short, just 4 weeks on the drugs. 200mg test and 200mg deca and they observed no negative effects on the subjects hearts. TRT clinics are now prescribing it at similar doses. Would they be doing so if the chance of heart damage was high? I’d like to think not. But either way I’d love a straight answer on this. Id really like to get back on 150-200mgs a week for my joints.
Thank you SO much for your long and detailed response mate, much appreciated. I've only just seen this response as I was checking for a while and figured you may not want to go into it all so thank you. It does seem to be a very grey area in whats going on both on and off nandrolone thats for sure. Its surprising there isn't more literature regarding humans using the compound especially since there must have been countless autopsies done on Pro Bodybuilders who have died of Cardiac issues, and they must of used Deca for Decades! I will continue this on Zewi's post anyway
Here’s the fucked up truth nobody wants to face: the heart doesn’t give a shit what your mg/kg ratio is if you're running Nandrolone like it’s a multivitamin for five years straight. Mice got collagen loaded into the myocardium in weeks, and yeah, our doses are lower, but the exposure time is way longer. Chronic low-dose use might be sneakier, but it still adds up.
That 30g/kg typo, Yeah, probably....but even 5mg/kg twice a week, as in that other study, still showed collagen spikes. Now you throw in exercise as a “protector”, sure, it helped, but it didn’t stop LVH or collagen elevation. It’s like saying cardio lets you smoke a pack a day because you jog after. Doesn’t undo shit. It just buys you time.
TRT clinics handing out Deca at 200mg/week, That’s like saying just ‘cause your doc prescribes it, it’s safe long-term. Same docs hand out Caber, which also causes cardiac fibrosis like you mentioned. Wild, right!! The thing they give you to help with prolactin can fuck your heart too.
You had clean heart scans after 5 years off, That’s badass. Maybe you’re lucky. Maybe it did reverse. Or maybe fibrosis was mild and compensated for. But let’s not pretend a clean echo = green light to jump back on NPP like nothing ever happened.
I’m with you, NPP is a game-changer for pain, strength, joint volume. But if we don’t fully understand the cost, that shit’s a gamble. We’re all in the same casino. Some of us just don’t wanna roll the dice blind.
Nandrolone and resistance training induce heart remodeling: Role of fetal genes and implications for cardiac pathophysiology
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51616813_Nandrolone_and_resista...
Nandrolone Plus Moderate Exercise Increases the Susceptibility to Lethal Arrhythmias: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4576214/
The Effect of Nandrolone Decanoate and Leucine on Muscle Loss (Le-Na)
https://clinicaltrials.gov/study/NCT02376309?term=AREA%5BConditionSearch%5D(%22Muscular%20Atrophy%22)%20AND%20AREA%5BInterventionSearch%5D(%22androgens%22)&rank=4
The bottom line is nandrolone is bad news, unfortunately. There’s just no getting around that. I loved the stuff, but I don’t I’ll ever mess with it again. It just doesn’t seem to be worth the potential risk. Cardiac remodeling starts so quickly in rats. Is it different for humans? Idk.
I’ll have to dig it up again but I came across a study showing some very promising findings on Nebivolol reversing cardiac remodeling. Not just reducing LVH, but also fibrosis.
Press, have you ever taken telmisartan? There’s a strong case to be made for running this while on gear in general, but especially nandrolone. Studies show it prevents cardiac remodeling, specifically preventing hypertrophy and cardiac fibrosis.
I have a script for Losartan from the Dr here which is also an ARB, not sure it protects the heart as well in terms of remodelling though mate. I asked them for Telmisartan but its simply not prescribed over here for high BP it seems like it is in the States. I do get Bisoprolol on script now originating from years back when I was in Hosptial and was running high Tren ace at the time, my HR was very high in the middle of summer and the Doc was frightened to death about it - so he gave me some of that to reduce it and it also helps on BP quite a bit because it blocks the adrenaline receptors on the heart. Bisoprolol also helps the heart and has been shown to help ejection fraction and things I seem to remember when I looked it up.
Tried it a year and a half ago. Almost got divorced. Turns out I'm one of those people that can only take deca. Eq shortened my fuse so incredibly bad. And add that to the aloofness that nandrolone gives me... not a good combo..... for me.
I wish I could use deca. Doesn't matter if I take caber with it, my dick becomes useless and I will become a depressed lump of meat. I become mentally and emotionally unrecognizable. But physically makes me grow nicely.
Mentally and emotionally I respond way better to boldenone. Physically I don't grow as much, but my muscles become hard as rocks.
I've seen others comment that people typically better handle one or the other. I take the deca at half my test dosage. Any higher and my dick stops working too, and I get too paranoid. But any amount of eq I get nothing but grumpy.
How long did it take before you reached that point emotionally?
I've never had the issue with deca making me numb or anxious fortunately.
I want to say relatively quick. Like maybe around the 4 week mark. Deca is fantastic for me as long as I stay at 2:1 test/deca. Any amount of eq and I'm just an irritable jerk.
That's the highest test/deca ratio i've ever tried. I'm not opposed to only doing one or the other. I'd probably try the eq in that case since i've never tried it before and i have 10 vials of it.
I'd just start low and slow. I've seen others, other than myself, also say that it's usually one or the other. If you like deca, usually don't like eq and vice versa.