Waves of depression/anxiety 5 months after cycle- Updated new bloodwork
****This was a kickstart/restart regarding triptorelin and DSIP, but I changed it because I won't be taking either of those and I've been getting waves of depression and anxiety since stopping my cycle****
Did a 14 week Test cyp cycle. 18 days after last pin, did PCT from Jan 7 to Jan 13th when things went haywire. You can read about it in my other thread.
January 16th, I had my hormones tested, very likely with all the PCT drugs still in my system:
Compound........................................Value...........................Normal Range
Luteinizing Hormone.........................4.1 mIU/mL.................1.7 - 8.6 mIU/mL
Follicle Stimulating Hormone............4.6 mIU/mL.................2.0 - 9.2mIU/mL
MH Estradiol.....................................<5.0 pg/mL..................7.6 - 42.6 pg/mL...........Low
Total Testosterone.............................474 ng/dL....................264 - 916 ng/dL
Free Testosterone(Direct).................9.3 pg/mL....................8.7 - 25.1 pg/mL
Got on an herbal test booster, DAA, tribulus powder, Vitamin D, Zinc, Magnesium.
Once I started feeling better, I tried taking Clomid at 25mg/day, but that's when the first bout of anxiety came creeping back after 3 days. I don't know if it just correlated to the cycles I was going through or if it was directly causing it. I would feel good, even great for a few days, then feel the anxiety creeping back up. Then it would subside and I would feel normal, even hornier and more upbeat than usual, then back to anxiety.
March 13th, 8 weeks later:
Compound........................................Value...........................Normal Range
Total Testosterone.............................379 ng/dL....................264 - 916 ng/dL......100 points lower
Free Testosterone(Direct).................9.4 pg/mL....................8.7 - 25.1 pg/mL.....Same
MH Estradiol.....................................33.9 pg/mL..................7.6 - 42.6 pg/mL.....Mid-high
Prolactin...........................................14.9 ng/mL.....................4.0 - 15.2 ng/mL...Borderline out of range
LH and FSH were likely lower since the PCT drugs had cleared my system by then.
I was feeling ok, but not great. So I got some herbal stuff and Boron for prolactin. A few days into taking it and now I'm feeling worse, so I stopped. More depression, more cycles of anxiety. Barely any appetite, no libido (although with enough encouragement, I had some lackluster sex), no desire to lift. Not even a desire to train jiu jitsu, and I love doing that more than anything. I'm going to try to keep forcing myself to lift, but I'm switching it up to 3 short, moderately intense, full body lifts per week, instead of a 5 day body part split. On my off days I'll be working on my house.
I think it's safe to say my test has dropped and my E has risen, which explains my lack of motivation being more prevalent.
Your suggestions, experiences? Something you would add?
**********************************************************UPDATE: NEW BLOODWORK, NEW SPECULATIONS
First of all, thank you GiardaP and Dacky and everyone else that has given me their input. Second, I'm sorry to bother you all, again. I know you don't know me, so I probably sound like a whiny child, but I promise you this is not how I am on a regular basis.
I was following GiardaP and Dackys advice on boosting total and free test naturally and lowering SHBG, I was also following protocols to keep prolactin low with P5P. On April 30th I felt my anxiety return, so I took an aromasin 25mg and things weren't improving much, so I scheduled an appt and drew bloods.
May 4th:
Compound........................................Value...........................Normal Range
Total Testosterone.............................593 ng/dL....................264 - 916 ng/dL......200pts higher
Free Testosterone(Direct).................17.3 pg/mL....................8.7 - 25.1 pg/mL.....Doubled
Estradiol.....................................23.0 pg/mL...................7.6 - 42.6 pg/mL..... lowered due to aromasin
Prolactin...........................................10.5 ng/mL.....................4.0 - 15.2 ng/mL...5 points lower
TSH.................................................1.090 uIU/mL...................0.450 - 4.500 uIU/mL
FSH..................................................4.1 mIU/mL.......................2.0 - 9.2 mIU/mL
LH......................................................4.7 mIU/mL........................1.7 - 8.6 mIU/mL
SHBG...................................................30.8 nmol/L.......................16.5 - 55.9 nmol/L
Everything came back normal, great, even, right?
This past Sunday, I started to feel my anxiety return, sure enough it was back Monday and has been getting worse, since then. So I had a blood test done at 4pm that Monday for just prolactin:
May 15th, non fasted, 4pm
PROLACTIN....................................6.5.......................................2.0-18.0 ng/mL
Also normal, but I had upped my P5P dose and I understand that prolactin drops as the day progresses.
I noticed a pattern, though, and it's poor diet (sugar, diet soda, occasional fast foods) and sex on the weekends. I learned that sex causes a huge surge in prolactin to mitigate dopamine, but returns to baseline within a few hours.
My symptoms line up with Post Orgasm Illness Syndrome, which makes me sound like a hypochondriac, but I've experienced it in the past, just never for weeks at a time. My experience in the past has been that I'll orgasm and get tired/weak/foggy headed/hoarse voice for the rest of that day and maybe the next day. Now I'm getting those symptoms and they're lasting a week or two, along with anxiety and depression. This seems to point to a prolactin/dopamine issue. I show most of the signs of POIS and it has very much contributed to my anxiety for obvious reasons. There is only speculation as to the cause (autoimmune/allergic reaction to ones own semen, or something to do with the surge of hormones during orgasm) and there is no known cure.
My symptoms are that I experience peaks and troughs in dopamine levels. My mood climbs and climbs until I'm feel great, sleeping well, having good workouts, enjoying music, wanting sex, being hungry, and I even start to have a positive outlook on the stressors in my life (work, bills, DIY home renovation). It gets to the point that I make impulsive decisions, jokes, have a witty personality. Then after a weekend of poor diet and sex it suddenly starts to dip back down and down, worse every day if I don't take the Aromasin. My zest for life is lost, I don't enjoy music, I'm sleepy all day and can fall asleep, but wake up in a short while from being too hot or alert, I have no appetite, and while I may have a physiological response to stimulation, I don't have a mental desire for sex, although I do become emotionally needy, like right now.
I'm still lifting and going to work, I'm basically living an outwardly normal life while suffering on the inside.
I haven't taken aromasin this week, in the hopes that things will level on their own. It's not working, so far, but maybe my system just needs to get used to having more estrogen floating around. Obviously, I plan on eating clean and abstaining from sex for as long as possible to see if symptoms improve.
I also learned that crashing estrogen can lead to dopamine receptor cell death, reversible with estrogen after 10 days, not reversible after 30. This was a study done on monkeys. And I learned that phenylalanine is a precursor to dopamine, and is a bit of it in diet soda, which I drank a lot of. Clearly I've been on Google, too much.
If I seem incoherent or all over the place, it's because I'm currently in the throes of anxiety. I took some GABA and L-theanine to chill out. I'm avoiding xanax as much as possible.
My doctor wants me to consider that I have generalized anxiety disorder since my levels keep coming back normal.
I'm super grateful for all your input so far. I'm driving myself a little crazy trying to figure out the other factors involved in how I feel (dopamine, prolactin, serotonin, estrogen). If you have any input on any of this, or if you can make any sense of my craziness right now, I'd be really grateful.
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Ok fella, glad you're back.
Dont take any more aromasin, especially if feeling down.
The bloods look good. Dont worry about the drop in prolactin, it fluxes as you see. If you dont want a (harmless) spike after sex.... dont cuddle the Mrs. after a shag. Get up go toilet or grab a drink, and that spike will not happen. Its unlikely to be an issue either way.
So, if bloods have normalised, the first thing I would love to see is a side by side with a baseline, from say last year or whenever. Got 1?
Secondly, if your test and estro (I start getting cranky at around 20 to be honest, but my total test is a notch lower than yours, so Ì would be curious to see a comparison from before cycling (not a post pct, but a before anything) and now. Might be a gap and your estro could be low normal which absolutely will cause certain depressive effects.
However, if that checks, you really gotta consider the most simple thing... per the doc... you may be suffering anxiety or a form of depression. I would be inclined to talk more to the doctor, but only if they have an approach that doesnt immediately involve meds, unless there is something pathological happening.
I would be inclined to start meditating. Twice per day. Download the headspace app for your mobile. Give it a go, take 10 is free, spend a month with it, while speaking with doctor and see how it goes?
Thanks, giardap. Unfortunately, I was an idiot and didn't get bloods done before cycle. The closest I might have is bloods that were done in my early/mid 20s, and those were drawn by a relative several years ago who said he probably has no record of them.
I stopped taking the Aromasin. The only things I'm taking now are vitamins, minerals, omegas, and some caffeine.
"Secondly, if your test and estro..." I wasn't clear on what you said there. Are you saying the gap between them is too large or just that estrogen being a little low is contributing to how I feel?
Here's something I'm considering, maybe you can confirm or rebut. My brain got used to having low estrogen levels, and as those levels start to climb, my receptors are not used to the cascade of hormones that estrogen produces, and continually dropping estrogen with aromasin prolonged the situation. My symptoms seem to line up with low dopamine. So maybe I need to endure high-normal estrogen for a little bit until things even out with dopamine receptors? Another observation I've made is that I've been feeling really needy, like I want to be around friends and loved ones. That's unlike me, while I love my friends and family, I generally enjoy my alone time and doing my own thing, with the exception of having a girl's company. I feel like that's serotonin related?
I also learned there are androgen receptors in the hypothalamus, and orgasm downregulates them, temporarily. That could be an explanation to how I feel, and it may take longer to recover because my androgen, estrogen, and dopamine receptors are out of whack.
All my speculation simply points to waiting for things to even out.
My doctor was pretty quick to mention antidepressants. I definitely live in the US. That's a lot of experimenting, finding the right meds, and I'm probably losing my insurance, soon, a new situation adding to my stresses and anxiety.
Meditation is actually a part of the workout I've been doing. It's a three-day, full-body split that involves high intensity sets, and the meditation is meant to recover the CNS. Given my limited time during the day, it's pretty difficult, but I'm trying to add it in. I'll check out the apps you mentioned.
What you need to understand is that, you had a baseline of hormones working well (homeostasis), you introduced a load of stuff to mess that up (steroids and ancilliaries), everything is out of whack and you finish cycle... body tries to slowly return to base but you try to hurry it (lh through the roof etc), but this really just creates different imbalances, particularly when using hcg etc. (Hcg messes lh fsh and hyper-increases testo and estrogen levels). Now your body has kickstarted certain things but is still fighting to find base but also still converting new test to estro and new estros to prolactin etc. There is a post-PCT time where hormones generation and serum levels fluctuate. i.e. PCT really should include a post PCT therapy stage too. But If you mess lh fsh again you will further increase estrogen which will further increase prolactin again.
It strikes me that you might have had an estrogen rebound caused either by HCG or else you aromasin actually being arimidex (you used research chems right??). Pharma only to guarantee suicide ai.
Dacky nailed it. You need time and spend the time working on a natural test increase.
Your lack of libido is caused by elevated prolactin. Your lack of wood-power will be caused by low androgen levels (testo). Given time... estro will drop, prolactin will follow and libido will return. And, if you fix your natural low testo in the mean time, you will go from basic wood function to proper wood. Low test is actually your friend for a small spell, to allow estro and prl to lower.
If you were not using research chems (which may not truly be a suicide ai) you could take 1 dose of aromasin to lower estro and hurry it along. 1 dose should lower estro by a third or so. But DO NOT USE THAT research chem muck.
When i smashed my axis to sh!te, my doc wouldnt touch me with a 6ft. barge pole untill a good spell after the 5x half life of the PCT DRUGS had elapsed! Even still we waited on prl to normalise.
I have a forum on raising test, might help a little.
Giardap,
Your advice has helped me, thank you. I'm still trying to be patient.
I got some pharma grade Aromasin from...the balkans... from a crazy guy... and it initially helped my symptoms, however, they keep returning, so I've taken it maybe 3 times, once every two weeks or so. Could this be fake Aromasin?
I updated the thread with my current bloodwork and craziness.
Ok. Thank you for taking the time to explain all that to me.
I'll focus on naturally raising test/free test.
I'll stay the hell away from research chems.
I'll continually refer to these threads:
https://www.eroids.com/forum/general/general-talk/natural-routes-to-lowe...
https://www.eroids.com/forum/general/over-40-trt/considering-trt-at-lown...
Most importantly, I'll try to grow the hell up and be more patient.
You're referring to 1 dose of aromasin as 25mg, right? Assuming I could get pharma grade within a week or two, would it be worth it at this stage, or is it too late?
^^^^^this exactly this. OP please listen and save yourself a world of pain and expense down the line.
Seems to me you just need time. Lots of good food at or slightly above maintenance, rest and and focus in the gym. Keep monitoring the blood work every 8 weeks and look at Giardap’s forum on raising testosterone naturally. You may want to read this forum before you pull the trigger on he Trip - https://www.eroids.com/forum/steroids-qa/pct-anti-estrogens/triptorelin-.... Feel free to ask any questions on this.
Thanks, Dacky, I'll check it out.
Did you do bloods after all those cycles ? that's a lot of oral cycles , halodrol and epistane are mild but they will effect your natural testosterone , just because their called prohormones doesn't mean their not steroids , did you do pct after all those cycles ?
I did real PCT after the var. For the PHs I only ever did an herbal PCT because I was ignorant and believed the hype about not needing one.
And no, I was an idiot and didn't do bloods before/after PHs. I hadn't had my bloods done since I was around 22-23
You should do bloods often mate , search for Dr Michael Scally's power pct and read about it to see what you think
I checked it out. At 100mg clomid per day, that protocol seems to be almost as overkill as my first one. Am I missing something?
Yeah scrap that idea mate . Sorry I posted that . Bad idea on my part
With all the problems your having you'd think you'd get pharma grade meds , I wouldn't trust those research chemicals .
RustyhookerCheck his last forum and numbers up top. I see test estro in range. Makwa posted to him last forum....i dont think this guy listens.
No doesn't listen . His numbers aren't bad to be honest . I don't like the idea he has of just throwing more drugs at the problem and hoping one of them will work . Who knows what those liquids are dosed at or what substance they contain , I'd bin them right away.
I think pct was overkill , way too much drugs for that type of cycle .
I think I do listen. I mean, I read up on Makwa's reply and got some of the supplements he suggested for raising free test.
I didn't know my levels weren't bad, but I do know I feel like shit, and I've never had anxiety this bad, before.
I got the liquids and peptides from a research source on here, I don't know if I'm allowed to name them. I got the clomid from another pharma source on here, as well.
So you're both suggesting that my levels are mostly fine and that I need to simply address my free test?
Well your levels aren't great , your free test and total test are on the low side and prolactin is a little high . What kind of anxiety is it ? Is it the type where you worry about everything too much or is it more physical , like fast heart rate , sweating etc.
Both, but mostly the worrying. The worrying is somewhat normal, I'm a pretty thorough person, I think I give more info than I need to.
The physical is new for me, a sunken or light feeling in my chest, nervousness about going to lift or physical activity.
When I crashed my E, I felt like I couldn't take a satisfying breath, no matter how deep.
RustyhookerLiquid pct? Probably garbage. We have pharma sources and you trust your balls to liquids?
Test and estro in normal range. Prolactin high.
Id say, dont ever use roids again. Clomid caused anxiety? Again, pharma?
Boron for prolactin....bunk idea...no research done. You screwed yourself bro. I think your prolactin needs attn. Not really adding more chems for pct.
First test was wrong! Pct stays in system over a month. You tested 3 days after. Test read the pct and not natty hormones.
I agree and I've already committed to staying away from roids til I need doctor-monitored TRT.
Clomid was pharma, they are a source on here, I don't know if I'm allowed to name them on this thread.
I understand the first test was skewed, but I needed to figure out whether my E was too high or too low.
Until you need doctor monitored trt? What does that even mean?
Are you the kind of guy that gets a splinter and you make a doctor's appointment because you think it's gangrene? Did you know anxiety and stress raise cortisol and lower test levels? Stay away from hormones kid, you have a hard time managing the ones your body produces naturally.
Stop throwing shit at a problem that is in your head and just let things be. Test your levels after a month of nothing.
Using textbook trt answers too.. if one of the symptoms of low T was having gay feelings for your friend would you be posting about it?
I meant until I'm old enough to need TRT.
I'm generally the type that's reluctant to go to the doctor til things get really bad, but I get on google to research symptoms a little too often, so I see the point you're trying to make. I didn't know I couldn't handle my hormones until it was too late. I won't be getting back on gear.
Thanks.
.
RustyhookerAhhh. And the rest i asked/stated? Your levels are in range. Except prolactin.
Clomid was the only non-liquid PCT, tablets from pharmacom. Likely what made anxiety worse at first if not what caused it.
Yes, my test/estro are in "normal" range, but I feel depressed and have poor libido.
Yes, that's also a sign of high prolactin. I got shilajit, mucuna, ashwagandha for prolactin.
The Boron, b6, magnesium, and zinc are for increasing free test by SHBG reduction.
On a side note, I feel depressed and have low libido, and my test levels are 6200 and 27 e2. Prolactin in range and free test is good too. What do you think is the reason for my depression and low libido? You can't blame low T huh?