i love that pct with the aromasin, but i see no hcg?/, well if your libido is still good and your blood work says your test levels are at least baseline, than ok, but im in week four of my pct, and i follow quite similar one, novaldex, 10 mg , exemestane 25 mg e.o.d., clomid 150 mg daily, hcg 1000i.u. for 10 days consecutive,, and i just got off a 20 weeker, omg, my test levels are still basement im afraid!!, im going to keep up the clomid, a nd other items and hopefully it will rebound.
HCG is used only on cycle for me. HCG blast for 10 days is fine, but it also is counter productive if your in your PCT and use HCG that's just not the way you should use. it.
HCG should be used on cycle, a 10 day blast does not do enough to bring back your testis, you testis have already shrunk and now your trying to wake them up you can do that in 10 days but it is not long enough to really help in recovery if your cycle is a long or hard cycle compounds..
HCG on cycle stops your testis from shrinking and keep them ready to go to work right now even though they cant, so you take HCG 2-3 days up till you start PCT so when you start PCT your testis are already ready to go, when you add clomid, nova and aromasin.
Dont blast HCG at the end, You run it through the cycle-- blasting at the end is like trying to shock your body to start, will really what your doing is giving it a 50 meter shock in a 200 meter race, so it isnt enough.. HCG on cycle keeps you at 150 meters of that 200 meters so when you stop your long cycle/hard cycle you only have 50 meters to go instead of 150 meters..
Just wanted to chime in and say that this is a very good read. What time ive been here, ive learned a lot from you, cdaddy, and gs. You guys are a valued asset to eroids. Thanks, and much respect!
Aromasin has positive effects on igf levels but I truly don't feel that the smaller dose of Nolvadex would have such a negative effect that it would cause such problems with diabetes....there are a number of guys that have diabetes and I haven't heard negative feedback on Nolvadex and their PCT
Aromasin has positive effects on igf levels but I truly don't feel that the smaller dose of Nolvadex would have such a negative effect that it would cause such problems with diabetes....there are a number of guys that have diabetes and I haven't heard negative feedback on Nolvadex and their PCT
Thanks for that! My father just found out hes developed it.. My grandfather 'developed' it and no doubt so will i so just wanted to clear that up! Thanks mate
Yet another good read im learning alot from you guys! Why has g&c added less nolva than ur tweak? Is it completly due to the moodswings? Also i noticed u never mentioned anything a out caber even tho ur running tren? Does aromasin do a similar role?
It's due to the thought of having too low of E2 on the Aro and Nolva together. Also Aromasin is not similar to Caber. Some guys need Caber while others do not. If bloodwork has ur Prolactin/Progesterone levels at a normal level Caber is not needed. After a while guys know their bodies so well bloodwork isn't as necessary.
When I came up with the general outline of this PCT Cdaddy and I decided on the Dosages. Zewi tweaked it a bit to serve his bodies needs.
Thanks bro i appreciate it. So ur pct outline is pretty much default for the masses while oldmate zewis is what he'd use?! Ill definatly be cementing a thoroughly planned pct/ai plan before i ever start a cycle from now on i had no idea just how crucial it was up until the last few days.
Exactly brother! I aromatase like nobody's business. So I stick to an ED protocol. The science is there. More user testimonials and bloodwork are what make it legit. Cdaddy and I were in the process of creating a catalog for the New Steriod User when we came up with the doses and we feel that the catalog can help every new user out there. The Pct just happened to evolve from one of those PM sessions and we laid it down for the crew. Zewi saw where we were going with it and saw changes he felt he needed out of it and his bloods spoke for themselves. It can be shaped to fit everyone. This really was a team effort getting it together.
It was a most excellent brainstorming big brother with absolute success and the more ppl that use this have nothing but rave to speak on the experience....there are def many ways to recover but this has proven to b optimal at this time bc of cost and availability...now if legit Triptorelin and toremifene becomes available and cost effective then we got an even better tweak to this formulation...
Regarding Trip I'd really like to see more than that one single study. I am intrigued but will reserve judgement until more studies and successful PCT testimonials are done by real users. I mean it looks good but all I can find out there is that one study by those Italian doctors. Do u have any more that maybe I missed?
There's another one I saw and me and Muta have discussed it back and forth....Hell if i could get my hands on the real deal I would run it and bloodwork but getting hands on the real deal is not likely and the cost is steep too.....Hell with the benefits that toremifene is very promising but u run into the same wall of legit and then costing u an arm and a leg....I will look for the study when i get home for u G
Yeh i was thinking about trip being the new cover all bases thpe pct but ive an underlying fear this may not be the case! If trip was available commercially to most ppl what would it replace in the pct u guys have posted or would it be just an added security?
How important would you vets say nolva is to the pct? Is Aromasin 12.5mg ED then switching to 6.25mg daily the last two weeks + 100/100/50/50 clomid enough? I would like to use the least amounts of pharmaceutical drugs as possible.... but if it is necessary I will be getting it for the next cycle i'm planning.. thanks!
The reason that we left the Nolvadex in the formulation was bc there is a synergistic effect of Clomid and Nolva together on the LH which is the key factor in kickstarting the natty production....now u def could leave the Nolvadex out but i cannot tell u how that would or would not effect PCT and recovery....this was tried and found true with bloodwork....now there are many ways to PCT but to my knowledge this is the most effective using the compounds....other methods are using growth hormone to create a positive feedback and another is Triptorelin which both can be a bit costly and the Triptorelin issue is finding it legit.....Triptorelin basically resets the HPTA axis almost instantly....until then this is ur best bet
ive been reading alot about toremifene in place of nolva. apparently it gives you all the same things nolva does but with reduced sides and it doesnt suppress igf-1 production like nolva does. plus from all ive read it brings the boys back to normal in 1/2 the time nolva does. ill have to read up on triptorelin, i know you can find it from some research peptide sites on here. is it similar to ghrp or other gh releasing peptides?
I've read on it too but the availability and cost is the only problem....to my knowledge there is no legit Triptorelin sold on this. site but there is an SRC workn to bring that to the site...now for toremifene still havent found an src with legit
well ive read great things about the ancilleries you can "purchase" from certain "peptide" sites. read good stuff about the stane and clomid. i know they offer torem too. if all their other ancilleries are legit id think its a high probability that their torem is aswell. i saw you can also "purchase" triptorelin from he same site. can you confirm that its bunk even if all their other stuff has great reviews?
When you said 'Aromasin continuing the two weeks between last test shot and PCT' are you talking about taking Aromasin right after the last test shot and taking it for 2 weeks till you start PCT with Nolvaldex/Clomid?
You take it eod brother just like u do on cycle....the only reason u would take it everyday is if u had gyno and once it resolves u go back to eod...Aromasin is a suicide inhibitor so u don't want to squash ur estro all the way down bc u will have bad sides with low estro too
What are the thoughts of this PCT program? Calling all vets and people with the smarts or degrees in this field..
HPGA Normalization Protocol After Androgen Treatment
N Vergel, AL Hodge, MC Scally
Program for Wellness Restoration, PoWeR
Objective Results Discussion
To develop an approach to cycle androgens that would result in significant changes in body composition and accelerate the normalization of the hypothalamic pituitary gonadal axis (HPGA) after cessation of androgens.
Methods
An uncontrolled study of 19 HIV-negative eugonadal men, ages 23 – 57 years, administered testosterone cypionate and nandrolone decanoate for 12 weeks, and then were treated simultaneously with a combined regimen of human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) (2500 IU/QODx16d), clomiphene citrate (50 mg PO BID x 30d) and tamoxifen (20 mg PO QD x 45d), to restore the HPGA.
Results
Mean FFM by DEXA increased from 64.1 to 69.8 kg (p<.001); percent body fat decreased from 23.6 to 20.9 (p<.01); strength increased significantly from 357.4 lb to 406.4 lb (p=.02). No significant changes in serum chemistries and liver function tests were found. HDL-C decreased from a mean value of 44.3 to 38.0 (p=.02). Mean values for luteinizing hormone (LH) and total testosterone (T) were 4.5 and 460, respectively prior to androgen treatment. At the conclusion of the 12-week treatment with androgens the mean LH <0.7 (p<.001) and total testosterone was 1568 (p<.001). The mean values after treatment with the combined regimen were LH=6.2 and testosterone=458.
Discussion
The use of androgens has been reported to improve lean body mass, strength, sexual function, and mood accompanied by side effects caused by continuous uninterrupted use of these compounds (polycythemia, testicular atrophy, hypertension, liver dysfunction [oral androgens] and alopecia.) Androgen-induced HPGA suppression causes a severe hypogonadal state in most patients that often require an extensive period of considerable duration for normalization. This prevents most if not all individuals from cycling off these medications due to the adverse impact of this state on their previously gained LBM and quality of life. The protocol of hCG-clomiphene-tamoxifen was successful in restoring the HPGA within 45 days after androgen cessation. Further controlled studies are needed to determine if these results can be duplicated in HIV positive subjects.
PRACTICAL APPLICATION
The esters used in the abstract were cypionate and deconate however the administration of the PCT medications were started the day after aas cessation. Essentially the aas esters were still active when PCT began. The first 16 days a large amount of HCG was used in order to increase the mass of the testes so that they could sustain output of testosterone sooner. The HCG was stopped about the time the esters cleared so that estrogenic activity from the HCG would be reduced. During those first 16 days 2 different SERM’s were also employed (Clomid and Nolvadex) This protocol is contrary to what is typically recommended in many forums but regardless the protocol was effective in all 19 men. This is a 100% success rate! After the HCG was discontinued both SERM’s were continued. The following is the exact protocol in laymen’s terms.
Day 1-16 : 2500iu HCG every other day.
Day 1-30 : Nolva 20mg/day; Clomid 100mg/day (50mg was taken twice per day)
Day 31-45 : Nolva 20mg/day
I now strongly believe that an AI should be used as long as there is an aromatizing compound being administered. In this case Testosterone and HCG aromatize therefore using an AI until these meds clear is now what I am recommending. There is some evidence that adding Nolva to an AI does not increase the effectiveness of estro control therefore Nolva has no real advantage alongside an AI unless one is experiencing gyno. Additionally Nolva has been shown to reduce IGF-1 and GH levels. This is not a big deal on cycle as testosterone increases IGF-1 in a dose dependant relationship. However off cycle this is a problem. PCT is a fragile time and lower IGF-1 and GH levels is not desireable as I am sure you can appreciate. The last few days I have been relooking at AI's to find one that is specific to men that can be used on cycle and during PCT. It is my conclusion that Aromasin is the obvious choice.
Aromasin (Exemestane) is a Type-I aromatase inhibitor, or suicidal aromatase inhibitor. It’s called this because it lowers estrogen production in the body by attaching to the aromatase enzyme, and permanently deactivating it. (1)
Personally, I find this to be a very interesting mechanism of action when compared to type-II aromatase inhibitors, which bind competitively to the aromatase enzyme, and eventually unbind, rendering it active again. In the case of Aromasin, this doesn’t happen, and once it does its job on the enzyme, those particular enzymes will no longer function.
Because the enzyme is permanently deactivated there is no estrogen rebound with Aromasin. Estrogen rebound at this critical time during PCT is undesirable so using Arimidex would be inferior. Therefore I believe Aromasin is the AI of choice during PCT.
Reference:
A predictive model for exemestane pharmacokinetics/pharmacodynamics incorporating the effect of food and formulation.Br J Clin Pharmacol. 2005 Mar;59(3):355-64.
The following is a study done in men with Aromasin that shows significant effect on estrogen and testosterone;
Pharmacokinetics and Dose Finding of a Potent Aromatase Inhibitor, Aromasin (Exemestane), in Young Males
Suppression of estrogen, via estrogen receptor or aromatase blockade, is being investigated in the treatment of different conditions. Exemestane (Aromasin) is a potent and selective irreversible aromatase inhibitor. To characterize its suppression of estrogen and its pharmacokinetic (PK) properties in males, healthy eugonadal subjects (14–26 yr of age) were recruited. In a cross-over study, 12 were randomly assigned to 25 and 50 mg exemestane daily, orally, for 10 d with a 14-d washout period. Blood was withdrawn before and 24 h after the last dose of each treatment period. A PK study was performed (n = 10) using a 25-mg dose. Exemestane suppressed plasma estradiol comparably with either dose [25 mg, 38% (P 0.002); 50 mg, 32% (P 0.008)], with a reciprocal increase in testosterone concentrations (60% and 56%; P 0.003 for both). Plasma lipids and IGF-I concentrations were unaffected by treatment. The PK properties of the 25-mg dose showed the highest exemestane concentrations 1 h after administration, indicating rapid absorption. The terminal half-life was 8.9 h. Maximal estradiol suppression of 62 ± 14% was observed at 12 h. The drug was well tolerated. In conclusion, exemestane is a potent aromatase inhibitor in men and an alternative to the choice of available inhibitors. Long-term efficacy and safety will need further study.
Good read and i like the plan. And i like HCG if i use tren or a cycle that is 20 weeks.
I have found using Aromasin on PCT has made it even easier to get back to normal state. IMO it has made the job of Clomid that much easier and Nova.
If you take a long cycle or a cycle with Tren---that shuts you down and actually makes your balls shrink from long use (or tren) I totally believe in HCG for a faster recovery to normal for your ball size...However, Adding Aromasin form my experience has made the recovery different than i have experience.
I agree with u Z...I think unless u r using harsh compounds that shut you down hard and fast with the combination of high doses and long cycles of 20 weeks that there is no warrant for HCG UNLESS there is a pre-exisisting condition of hypogonadism or a cycle history in which the person had a hard time PCT with kickstart...that's my stance with that based off of my bloodwork and experience and observation of others experience
So after a test and eq cycle thats ran for 20 weeks or more, definitely include hcg in the pct? Otherwise anything under 20, and assuming your not using harsh compounds (tren?), theres no need for it?
I would def consider use of it if you cycles or 12+ weeks....I needed to make myself more clear...if I am doing 20 week cycle u can bet I got HCG in that cycle and i usually throw it in about mid cycle....that's what works for me...if i am running a cycle greater than 12 weeks where the compounds are not so hard well then I guage it on my body...if my nuts start shrinking too much and my mid cycle bloodwork warrants then I will definitely use hcg....that's why I push the importance of bloodwork pre, during, and post....you know EXACTLY what's goin on inside your body......u can get blood work done around 50 bucks or less and It's worth every penny bc u can't go wrong doing that
AnonFuck
Why is this deleted?!?!
i love that pct with the aromasin, but i see no hcg?/, well if your libido is still good and your blood work says your test levels are at least baseline, than ok, but im in week four of my pct, and i follow quite similar one, novaldex, 10 mg , exemestane 25 mg e.o.d., clomid 150 mg daily, hcg 1000i.u. for 10 days consecutive,, and i just got off a 20 weeker, omg, my test levels are still basement im afraid!!, im going to keep up the clomid, a nd other items and hopefully it will rebound.
zewiHCG is used only on cycle for me. HCG blast for 10 days is fine, but it also is counter productive if your in your PCT and use HCG that's just not the way you should use. it.
HCG should be used on cycle, a 10 day blast does not do enough to bring back your testis, you testis have already shrunk and now your trying to wake them up you can do that in 10 days but it is not long enough to really help in recovery if your cycle is a long or hard cycle compounds..
HCG on cycle stops your testis from shrinking and keep them ready to go to work right now even though they cant, so you take HCG 2-3 days up till you start PCT so when you start PCT your testis are already ready to go, when you add clomid, nova and aromasin.
Dont blast HCG at the end, You run it through the cycle-- blasting at the end is like trying to shock your body to start, will really what your doing is giving it a 50 meter shock in a 200 meter race, so it isnt enough.. HCG on cycle keeps you at 150 meters of that 200 meters so when you stop your long cycle/hard cycle you only have 50 meters to go instead of 150 meters..
Well thats my 2 cents...
Just wanted to chime in and say that this is a very good read. What time ive been here, ive learned a lot from you, cdaddy, and gs. You guys are a valued asset to eroids. Thanks, and much respect!
cdaddy7Thanks bro
zewibumb cause i want too
cdaddy7I'll bump it too homie
bump bump bump!
AnonPs if nolva supresses igf production can this be a bad idea for someone with diabetes?
cdaddy7Aromasin has positive effects on igf levels but I truly don't feel that the smaller dose of Nolvadex would have such a negative effect that it would cause such problems with diabetes....there are a number of guys that have diabetes and I haven't heard negative feedback on Nolvadex and their PCT
cdaddy7Aromasin has positive effects on igf levels but I truly don't feel that the smaller dose of Nolvadex would have such a negative effect that it would cause such problems with diabetes....there are a number of guys that have diabetes and I haven't heard negative feedback on Nolvadex and their PCT
AnonThanks for that! My father just found out hes developed it.. My grandfather 'developed' it and no doubt so will i so just wanted to clear that up! Thanks mate
Give them a vote if you find it helpful.PermalinkAnonYet another good read im learning alot from you guys! Why has g&c added less nolva than ur tweak? Is it completly due to the moodswings? Also i noticed u never mentioned anything a out caber even tho ur running tren? Does aromasin do a similar role?
It's due to the thought of having too low of E2 on the Aro and Nolva together. Also Aromasin is not similar to Caber. Some guys need Caber while others do not. If bloodwork has ur Prolactin/Progesterone levels at a normal level Caber is not needed. After a while guys know their bodies so well bloodwork isn't as necessary.
When I came up with the general outline of this PCT Cdaddy and I decided on the Dosages. Zewi tweaked it a bit to serve his bodies needs.
AnonThanks bro i appreciate it. So ur pct outline is pretty much default for the masses while oldmate zewis is what he'd use?! Ill definatly be cementing a thoroughly planned pct/ai plan before i ever start a cycle from now on i had no idea just how crucial it was up until the last few days.
Give them a vote if you find it helpful.PermalinkExactly brother! I aromatase like nobody's business. So I stick to an ED protocol. The science is there. More user testimonials and bloodwork are what make it legit. Cdaddy and I were in the process of creating a catalog for the New Steriod User when we came up with the doses and we feel that the catalog can help every new user out there. The Pct just happened to evolve from one of those PM sessions and we laid it down for the crew. Zewi saw where we were going with it and saw changes he felt he needed out of it and his bloods spoke for themselves. It can be shaped to fit everyone. This really was a team effort getting it together.
AnonAwesome team effort i must say!
cdaddy7It was a most excellent brainstorming big brother with absolute success and the more ppl that use this have nothing but rave to speak on the experience....there are def many ways to recover but this has proven to b optimal at this time bc of cost and availability...now if legit Triptorelin and toremifene becomes available and cost effective then we got an even better tweak to this formulation...
Regarding Trip I'd really like to see more than that one single study. I am intrigued but will reserve judgement until more studies and successful PCT testimonials are done by real users. I mean it looks good but all I can find out there is that one study by those Italian doctors. Do u have any more that maybe I missed?
cdaddy7There's another one I saw and me and Muta have discussed it back and forth....Hell if i could get my hands on the real deal I would run it and bloodwork but getting hands on the real deal is not likely and the cost is steep too.....Hell with the benefits that toremifene is very promising but u run into the same wall of legit and then costing u an arm and a leg....I will look for the study when i get home for u G
AnonYeh i was thinking about trip being the new cover all bases thpe pct but ive an underlying fear this may not be the case! If trip was available commercially to most ppl what would it replace in the pct u guys have posted or would it be just an added security?
How important would you vets say nolva is to the pct? Is Aromasin 12.5mg ED then switching to 6.25mg daily the last two weeks + 100/100/50/50 clomid enough? I would like to use the least amounts of pharmaceutical drugs as possible.... but if it is necessary I will be getting it for the next cycle i'm planning.. thanks!
cdaddy7The reason that we left the Nolvadex in the formulation was bc there is a synergistic effect of Clomid and Nolva together on the LH which is the key factor in kickstarting the natty production....now u def could leave the Nolvadex out but i cannot tell u how that would or would not effect PCT and recovery....this was tried and found true with bloodwork....now there are many ways to PCT but to my knowledge this is the most effective using the compounds....other methods are using growth hormone to create a positive feedback and another is Triptorelin which both can be a bit costly and the Triptorelin issue is finding it legit.....Triptorelin basically resets the HPTA axis almost instantly....until then this is ur best bet
skalpaive been reading alot about toremifene in place of nolva. apparently it gives you all the same things nolva does but with reduced sides and it doesnt suppress igf-1 production like nolva does. plus from all ive read it brings the boys back to normal in 1/2 the time nolva does. ill have to read up on triptorelin, i know you can find it from some research peptide sites on here. is it similar to ghrp or other gh releasing peptides?
cdaddy7I've read on it too but the availability and cost is the only problem....to my knowledge there is no legit Triptorelin sold on this. site but there is an SRC workn to bring that to the site...now for toremifene still havent found an src with legit
skalpawell ive read great things about the ancilleries you can "purchase" from certain "peptide" sites. read good stuff about the stane and clomid. i know they offer torem too. if all their other ancilleries are legit id think its a high probability that their torem is aswell. i saw you can also "purchase" triptorelin from he same site. can you confirm that its bunk even if all their other stuff has great reviews?
When you said 'Aromasin continuing the two weeks between last test shot and PCT' are you talking about taking Aromasin right after the last test shot and taking it for 2 weeks till you start PCT with Nolvaldex/Clomid?
cdaddy7Yes Aromasin all the way thru cycle and PCT...no breaks
I'm a little confused... take aromasin everyday all the way through cycle...then when pct hits starts...start taking it every other day?
cdaddy7You take it eod brother just like u do on cycle....the only reason u would take it everyday is if u had gyno and once it resolves u go back to eod...Aromasin is a suicide inhibitor so u don't want to squash ur estro all the way down bc u will have bad sides with low estro too
perfect, just what I was lookin for =) thank you sir!
skalpax2 on that one.
I don't know why this isnt a stickie yet
zewicdaddy7Me either!!!! We have tread's approval
cdaddy7A bump from me 2
zewia bump from me..
biggerthanyouSome1 needs to sticky this in a fucking hurry...
cdaddy7It's kickass brother!!!
zewiyes it is
cdaddy7.
zewiUpdated.
cdaddy7Damn fine Z!!!
smallguyWhat are the thoughts of this PCT program? Calling all vets and people with the smarts or degrees in this field..
HPGA Normalization Protocol After Androgen Treatment
N Vergel, AL Hodge, MC Scally
Program for Wellness Restoration, PoWeR
Objective Results Discussion
To develop an approach to cycle androgens that would result in significant changes in body composition and accelerate the normalization of the hypothalamic pituitary gonadal axis (HPGA) after cessation of androgens.
Methods
An uncontrolled study of 19 HIV-negative eugonadal men, ages 23 – 57 years, administered testosterone cypionate and nandrolone decanoate for 12 weeks, and then were treated simultaneously with a combined regimen of human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) (2500 IU/QODx16d), clomiphene citrate (50 mg PO BID x 30d) and tamoxifen (20 mg PO QD x 45d), to restore the HPGA.
Results
Mean FFM by DEXA increased from 64.1 to 69.8 kg (p<.001); percent body fat decreased from 23.6 to 20.9 (p<.01); strength increased significantly from 357.4 lb to 406.4 lb (p=.02). No significant changes in serum chemistries and liver function tests were found. HDL-C decreased from a mean value of 44.3 to 38.0 (p=.02). Mean values for luteinizing hormone (LH) and total testosterone (T) were 4.5 and 460, respectively prior to androgen treatment. At the conclusion of the 12-week treatment with androgens the mean LH <0.7 (p<.001) and total testosterone was 1568 (p<.001). The mean values after treatment with the combined regimen were LH=6.2 and testosterone=458.
Discussion
The use of androgens has been reported to improve lean body mass, strength, sexual function, and mood accompanied by side effects caused by continuous uninterrupted use of these compounds (polycythemia, testicular atrophy, hypertension, liver dysfunction [oral androgens] and alopecia.) Androgen-induced HPGA suppression causes a severe hypogonadal state in most patients that often require an extensive period of considerable duration for normalization. This prevents most if not all individuals from cycling off these medications due to the adverse impact of this state on their previously gained LBM and quality of life. The protocol of hCG-clomiphene-tamoxifen was successful in restoring the HPGA within 45 days after androgen cessation. Further controlled studies are needed to determine if these results can be duplicated in HIV positive subjects.
PRACTICAL APPLICATION
The esters used in the abstract were cypionate and deconate however the administration of the PCT medications were started the day after aas cessation. Essentially the aas esters were still active when PCT began. The first 16 days a large amount of HCG was used in order to increase the mass of the testes so that they could sustain output of testosterone sooner. The HCG was stopped about the time the esters cleared so that estrogenic activity from the HCG would be reduced. During those first 16 days 2 different SERM’s were also employed (Clomid and Nolvadex) This protocol is contrary to what is typically recommended in many forums but regardless the protocol was effective in all 19 men. This is a 100% success rate! After the HCG was discontinued both SERM’s were continued. The following is the exact protocol in laymen’s terms.
Day 1-16 : 2500iu HCG every other day.
Day 1-30 : Nolva 20mg/day; Clomid 100mg/day (50mg was taken twice per day)
Day 31-45 : Nolva 20mg/day
I now strongly believe that an AI should be used as long as there is an aromatizing compound being administered. In this case Testosterone and HCG aromatize therefore using an AI until these meds clear is now what I am recommending. There is some evidence that adding Nolva to an AI does not increase the effectiveness of estro control therefore Nolva has no real advantage alongside an AI unless one is experiencing gyno. Additionally Nolva has been shown to reduce IGF-1 and GH levels. This is not a big deal on cycle as testosterone increases IGF-1 in a dose dependant relationship. However off cycle this is a problem. PCT is a fragile time and lower IGF-1 and GH levels is not desireable as I am sure you can appreciate. The last few days I have been relooking at AI's to find one that is specific to men that can be used on cycle and during PCT. It is my conclusion that Aromasin is the obvious choice.
Aromasin (Exemestane) is a Type-I aromatase inhibitor, or suicidal aromatase inhibitor. It’s called this because it lowers estrogen production in the body by attaching to the aromatase enzyme, and permanently deactivating it. (1)
Personally, I find this to be a very interesting mechanism of action when compared to type-II aromatase inhibitors, which bind competitively to the aromatase enzyme, and eventually unbind, rendering it active again. In the case of Aromasin, this doesn’t happen, and once it does its job on the enzyme, those particular enzymes will no longer function.
Because the enzyme is permanently deactivated there is no estrogen rebound with Aromasin. Estrogen rebound at this critical time during PCT is undesirable so using Arimidex would be inferior. Therefore I believe Aromasin is the AI of choice during PCT.
Reference:
The following is a study done in men with Aromasin that shows significant effect on estrogen and testosterone;
Pharmacokinetics and Dose Finding of a Potent Aromatase Inhibitor, Aromasin (Exemestane), in Young Males
Suppression of estrogen, via estrogen receptor or aromatase blockade, is being investigated in the treatment of different conditions. Exemestane (Aromasin) is a potent and selective irreversible aromatase inhibitor. To characterize its suppression of estrogen and its pharmacokinetic (PK) properties in males, healthy eugonadal subjects (14–26 yr of age) were recruited. In a cross-over study, 12 were randomly assigned to 25 and 50 mg exemestane daily, orally, for 10 d with a 14-d washout period. Blood was withdrawn before and 24 h after the last dose of each treatment period. A PK study was performed (n = 10) using a 25-mg dose. Exemestane suppressed plasma estradiol comparably with either dose [25 mg, 38% (P 0.002); 50 mg, 32% (P 0.008)], with a reciprocal increase in testosterone concentrations (60% and 56%; P 0.003 for both). Plasma lipids and IGF-I concentrations were unaffected by treatment. The PK properties of the 25-mg dose showed the highest exemestane concentrations 1 h after administration, indicating rapid absorption. The terminal half-life was 8.9 h. Maximal estradiol suppression of 62 ± 14% was observed at 12 h. The drug was well tolerated. In conclusion, exemestane is a potent aromatase inhibitor in men and an alternative to the choice of available inhibitors. Long-term efficacy and safety will need further study.
zewiGood read and i like the plan. And i like HCG if i use tren or a cycle that is 20 weeks.
I have found using Aromasin on PCT has made it even easier to get back to normal state. IMO it has made the job of Clomid that much easier and Nova.
If you take a long cycle or a cycle with Tren---that shuts you down and actually makes your balls shrink from long use (or tren) I totally believe in HCG for a faster recovery to normal for your ball size...However, Adding Aromasin form my experience has made the recovery different than i have experience.
cdaddy7I agree with u Z...I think unless u r using harsh compounds that shut you down hard and fast with the combination of high doses and long cycles of 20 weeks that there is no warrant for HCG UNLESS there is a pre-exisisting condition of hypogonadism or a cycle history in which the person had a hard time PCT with kickstart...that's my stance with that based off of my bloodwork and experience and observation of others experience
smallguySo after a test and eq cycle thats ran for 20 weeks or more, definitely include hcg in the pct? Otherwise anything under 20, and assuming your not using harsh compounds (tren?), theres no need for it?
cdaddy7I would def consider use of it if you cycles or 12+ weeks....I needed to make myself more clear...if I am doing 20 week cycle u can bet I got HCG in that cycle and i usually throw it in about mid cycle....that's what works for me...if i am running a cycle greater than 12 weeks where the compounds are not so hard well then I guage it on my body...if my nuts start shrinking too much and my mid cycle bloodwork warrants then I will definitely use hcg....that's why I push the importance of bloodwork pre, during, and post....you know EXACTLY what's goin on inside your body......u can get blood work done around 50 bucks or less and It's worth every penny bc u can't go wrong doing that
smallguya lot more informative. Makes much more sense. Thanks cadillac