+ 1 when to take AI, and when to take serms and when to take hcg
Hi everyone there is a lot iof data out there on pct, everyone seems to agree on serms nolvadex as part of your pct some people are saying use also an AI as PART of pct now some say got to use an AI like armidex DURING YOUR CYCLE IN SMALL DOSES its kind of confusing when to stop an AI AND WHEN TO BEGIN A SERM AND WHERE DOES HCG COME IN these are all drugs and warrent careful reasearch before yo take , I would really like the right way to do it , im looking for a really good source or someone with extensive expertise to lend a hand before I go and load up on any of these, appreciate all comments. I have not started a cycle yet but plan to go real easy um maybe 300mg of test weekly for 6 weeks then taper off on winny or anavar at maybe 20mg daily. thx im not plannig to do any foolish dosages im 47 175lbs and my health is my primary concern . thx guys.
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Here is some post cycle info that might help. Remember one thing you have lots of post cycles to choose from find the one that is right for you. use this information and others as a guide. This is an old post but the information is accurate. (not my post information I located for you)
PCT 's dont change dramatically, I dont think, even for supplement (s) cycles .
There seems to be a never ending number of, "What PCT for Sust/Deca ?", "What PCT for Dbol /Test ?".
When using androgens, that cause shutdown or inhibtion, the PCT should remain, mostly, unchanged. 95% of cycles cause complete shutdown (shutdown of endogenous testosterone production). Cyles containing Testosterone or 19-Nors, will cause almost complete testicular shutdown. Therfore an aggressive PCT is needed.
Use an AI if you havent used one when "on" to lower estrogen, which is extremely suppressive (leydig cells) during PCT .
Use proven SERMs (Clomid , Nolva).
Use Tormifene, which is one of the best available SERMs for restarting a shutdown HPTA. Its also a 2nd GEN SERM and has less occular toxicity and geno-toxicity than both Tamox /Clomid and is VERY effective at raising endogenous T in studies as recent at Apr/2009.
Use HCG when "on" to maintain testicular size/function.
My advice is:
Steroid /ProHormone cycle causing HPTA shutdown (HCG may not be needed in cycles below 6 weeks IMHO)
Use HCG 125-250ius 2-3 times weekly. This will maintain testicular function by maintaining endogenous testosterone prodction and ITT (Intra-Testicular Testosterone ). Using HCG throughout is the best protocol available IMHO. This is confirmed by Endocrinologists I have had contact with. It will also prevent the onset of testicular dysfunction by directly stimulating the testes.
After this peroid we then use PCT to restart GnRH from the hypothalamus and LH/FSH from the pituitary. When beginning PCT , switch to another AI also.
For more informtaion on HCG
Update:
Naltrexone.
It has the ability to fool the Hypothalamus into continuing to secrete GnRH. This when signals the Pituitary to secrete LH/FSH and the Testes (Leydig cells), Testosterone . EVEN when using androgens!
I'm using it next cycle , in place of HCG as I've read some very intresting reviews on it, aswell as articles here and elsewhere.
You should use a dosage or around 5mg/wk, split up throughout. User's are experiencing NO testicular atrophy at all. This would mean GnRH is still being produced. This would mean PCT is a breaze. Some havent even needed a PCT . I'm not suggesting that, but there are some who havent needed a PCT .
You can also take Triptorelin Acetate which is GnRH agonist and will increase the amount of GnRH the body will produce. Helping futher with recovery. 100mcg/ED is the dosing protocol I have seen suggested. With the combination of Naltrexone/Triptorelin, one may be able to totally avoid HPTA shutdown.
One thing I will add is that, Naltrexone is not for everyone. It makes alot of people feel bad, so cannot be used. I have seen doses of 5-10mg/wk suggested and as much as 25-50mg/ED suggested, both by doctors. Naltrexone is a long active opoid antagonist given to heroin addicts. There is also no known clinical data on it maintaining GnRH when taking exogenous hormones (steroids ) at bodybuilding doses.
If Naltrexone isnt for you, HCG or HMG are very good alternatives and will maintain endogenous testosterone, even when taking exogenous hormones and prevent further testicular dysfunction. Some still argue this is better than Naltrexone.
Example of PCT:
wk 1-5 Clomid 25-50mg/ED OR Torm 120/60mg/ED
wk 1-5 Nolva 20mg/ED OR Torm 60mg/ED
*Aromasin 25mg/ED OR Arimidex 0.5-1mg/ED
*AI's are not always needed, especially if one has been used to control estrogen (aromatse activity) during the cycle . There is a high risk of lowering estrogen too low and that can bring its own side effects ; Lowered labido, aching joints, poor cholesterol and can negatively effect the immune system. We need some estrogen, not alot, not zero, but one cannot afford a too low an estrogen level at this time of PCT .
One should also add a cortisol reducer. The best most effective and cheapest way to reduce cortisol is Vitamin C. Take 1g apon awakening and a further 1-2g PWO.
Tribulas or another labido enhancer (Proviron ).
Designer Steroid /PH cycle inhibiting the HPTA
wk 1-4 Clomid 25-50mg/ED OR Torm 60mg/ED
wk 1-4 Nolva 20mg/ED
Trib or another labido enhancer.
Thats it. Read the sticky's.
There are far too many "What PCT " threads here.
For those of you that state Clomid is inferior to Tamox ...
"The Columbia study evaluated the use of clomiphene citrate tablets in 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism, which was defined as a serum testosterone level 300 ng/dl. Each patient received a daily dose of 25 mg of clomiphene citrate. The average patient age was 39 years, with 12 over age 40. The average pretreatment testosterone level was 247.6 ng/dl. All patients received the drug for at least three months; the entire group was followed for 1 year.
By the first follow-up visit, which occurred between four and six weeks of the start of therapy, the average testosterone level rose to 610 ng/dl, an increase of 146 percent compared with baseline. This response was seen in all patients regardless of age.
No patients reported any of the known side effects of clomiphene citrate, such as hot flashes, visual disturbances, or headaches. In fact, most patients reported improvements in overall well-being, sex drive, physical strength, and mood on follow-up visit interviews."
Here: http://nyp.org/news/hospital/79.html
Update:
In a recent study done on Tamox , Tore and Rolax comparing HPTA restoration. Tamoxifen can out on top. In 8 weeks, 20mg/ED of Tamoxifen increased LH from 4.54 to 7.73 (+70%) and Test from 496.59 to 835.06 (+71%). After two months, 60mg/day of Toremifene increased LH from 4.05 to 5.05 (+25%) and Test from 496.59 to 709.79 (+42%).
One thing I will say though, is that the Tore dose is at 60mg/ED for 6-8 weeks, which IMHO is a low dose fo PCT . If you've read above? You'll see that I suggest a fair bit more (120/100/60/60/60) is what I suggest now. So although this study states Tamox is superoir to Tore, take the doses into account.
Again, even recent research on Tamox doesnt raise serum T by 146% as Clomid dose at 25mg/ED for 4-6 weeks.
I don't understand why people still inist on using HCG for PCT. HCG may stimulate your nuts to make test..but it still inhibits your natural HPTA axis...which defeats the whole purpose of PCT. HCG is best used right before PCT..so when your body starts telling your nuts to make more test during PCT they are able to do so.
I tend to agree with you. I haven't had significant testicular atrophy on cycle, so I've stayed away from HCG altogether.
I did per chance, see an "HCG diet kit" on amazon. It includes all the supplies, minus the actual HCG, to give yourself repeated shots of HCG as part of a diet plan! Talk about crazy and careless useages!
HCG in PCT is pretty hotly debated. I would say use it if you see testicular shrinkage, but I'm not the expert on HCG doseage.
SERMS 2 weeks after last long-acting test ester injection. You will ride that last shot through it's half-life before using SERMS to help restart your HPTA.
IF you use AIs during your cycle, you estrogen should already be in check, so the PCT concern isn't so much excess estrogen, but rather getting your natty test production back.
What is stopping you from just running a longer test only cycle? Why do you want to taper off with var? Just curious.
Some use AIs for PCT too. I'm not saying that's wrong, especially for heavier cycles. You know each person will be a little different. Clomid + Nolva for PCT is pretty standard and successful. I've done Nolva only after a mild cycle and been fine, personally. Good luck with your research.
hey thank you for reply listen its been a while since I did a cycle and i really dont know what im doing so i have digested all you said tapering off was what I just read around but have not tried it at all , so I think if I stick to a resonable dose on the test I 250 to 325 mg I should not have to deal with shrinkie shrinkie....
I'd like to say "yes, you should not shrink noticeable" but I think it is case by case basis on how folks' nuts respond to more test. I would for sure say you have a greater chance of testicular shrinkage on 500, 750, etc EW than 250.
I just didn't find it a huge concern at 250. That's me. You can be safe and get some HCG, no harm there, in case.
250mg ew probably pushes you to 1500 ng/dL range, for reference. 500mg is probably over 2000 ng/dL.
Thanks, as I said I'm still learning ;-) and after further research I agree with you guys that HCG, if needed, is best taken before PCT commences, preferably during the last couple of weeks while still on cycle, so either 500iu daily or 1500iu e3d.
If I understood you correctly, I won't be tapering off with var, I'll be introducing it into the cycle after the fourth week besides enanthate, so first 4 weeks enan only, starting week 5 it's enan+var .... is that "tapering off"?
Oh, I understand. Once the Test E kicks in you are going to add var.
I'll be 36 in April, and I'm planning my first cycle ever, and because of my age, I've researched PCT even more than I have anabolic steroids.
My 8-week cycle will consist of TST enanthate 250mg E6D and Anavar 50mg daily starting 4th cycle week.
I was advised by whom seem to be experts to take Anastrozle "Arimidex" at 0.5mg EOD while on cycle, if I feel I'm taking on too much water "unlikely with enan and anavar", gyno coming, or suffer excessive hair loss and/or an acne breakout, then I should raise the dose to 1.0mg... but that is seldom if at all necessary.
After finishing the anabolic cycle, PCT after enanthate should be commenced on the 14th day after the last jab, and that should consist of the following:
First three weeks of PCT take daily: Nolvadex 20mg - HCG 500iu - Aromasin 25mg - Vitamin E 800iu
Forth week take daily: Nolvadex 20mg - Aromasin 25mg
Fifth and sixth week take daily: Nolvadex 20mg
When exactly do I start PCT? click on the link> http://pct.befit4free.net/
I would start 1-2 days earlier than that calculator recommends, but it's still helpful.
Cheerz!
I also just read about a week after you start the ai or maybe two you should have a blood run to see your estrogen to make sure your ai is not cutting too much off this could negatively affect your cycle and maybe some small sides ,its all got to be balanced out.