+ 3 Mid Cycle Bloodwork
Anything jumping out here? I’m pretty happy with these results. Currently running 400mg test a week and 50mg of oxandrolone per day. Taking liver support, low cholesterol diet, all my vitamins etc.
My previous test results were from August of 2022 when I found out I had high cholesterol and modified my diet. So considering I’m on an oral that is expected to skew my cholesterol numbers I’m pretty stoked to see them where they are.
My liver enzymes were higher than what I was expecting but from my research don’t seem to far out of range to cause concern. Please correct me if I am wrong.
I was thinking about donating blood to get my blood cell count down.
Any insight is appreciated, I’m trying to stay healthy. Im normally on 160mg a week of TRT.
Thanks fellas.
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RustyhookerPress1 below has forums on liv supps. Hydrate.
I remember you from back in the day! I have not been on this forum in about 8 or 9 years. Got married had kids stopped using my body as a science experiment. Crazy to see some of the same guys still here. You probably don’t remember me, you’re username just always stuck out! Dropping the var going back to TRT. No reason to fuck around unless my bloods came back better than they did.
Triple digit liver values, I would be dropping the var sooner than later. 10-20 pts above so called normal is not a big deal if living the bodybuilding lifestyle but I wouldn't want to be in triple digit range for too long.
I dropped it this morning. Back to TRT for me. I missed a lot of variables, made some notes, try again next year with a better approach and see what the bloods have to say then. Seems I needed a better liver support and should’ve stopped training before my test. Thanks for the advice!
Your liver is going to take a hit with orals, support or not. Just the nature of the beast with them. Some are obviously worse than others. Choice you have to make if you are going to run them, are they worth it or not. All you can try to do is mitigate the damage. Don't stay on too long, don't use ridiculous dosages, use cycle support etc. but still be aware your liver is going to take a hit no matter what you do if you incorporate them into a cycle. Do you really need them in your cycle is the question you have to ask yourself.
Did you train pretty close to giving this blood sample mate? Such as within the past 72 hours as this is known to increase both ALT and AST levels. Last time I gave bloods mine were both elevated 40 points above what they usually are for no other reason than I did squats 10 hours before the donation. I've also noticed it causes a drop in eGFR compared to when I have not trained before.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2291230/
TricepatopsThat study is for men who don't lift weights. So yes they will have higher levels. If you regularly lift over years then your levels should not elevate as your body adapts to it. Now say you never do squats or legs or you push yourself way harder then before and you are so sore it is hard to move them you most likely will have elevated levels. But if you lift regularly then it shouldn't matter when you give blood those levels shouldn't be elevated.
The primary objective of the present study was to investigate the effect of intensive muscular exercise (weightlifting) on a single occasion on clinical chemistry parameters, reflecting liver function in healthy men not used to performing weightlifting on a regular basis.
Now say you regularly lift weights and take two weeks off and go back to lifting they might be elevated but the body has something called homeostasis. The body adapts over time. What I am saying in the end is could it be possible yes most likely no but don't assume your levels are high because you lifted weights if you have been lifting for months to years Consistently.
Yes, leg day that morning. I go to the gym at 5AM. I was fasting for the test and took the test at 9:15AM.
BINGO!!! I guarantee if you go and do the test again without training for a while beforehand then those liver levels will be much lower. Legs are one of the worst parts to do before bloods in terms of all the muscle breakdown caused and associated waste products.
TricepatopsHonest question and not trying to be rude but you think oral steroids at 50mgs for most likely 6 weeks if this is his mid cycle bloods isn't causing the elevation. Now I have to ask since he did legs and most people neglect them or don't do them enough it could cause a raise in them along with the oral steroids.
Anavar at 50mg's for 6 weeks would highly unlikely be causing an ALT of 139, Anavar is also mainly metabolised by the Kidneys and not the Liver. The anavar will push his liver values up, but not to that degree is my personal opinion - but training a muscle group like legs would on top of an already elevated value. I would expect it maybe to be around 80 but obv can't say for sure. You have pointed out that his kidney values look okay down below?? Well I see an eGFR of 110 dropped down to 82, thats a loss of nearly 30. Another 30 and he will be in Stage 3 Chronic kidney disease. We have been over this many times before in regards to exercise raising liver enzyme levels - I have found it raises mine considerably and I know many others who it affects also. This is one of the main reasons why people do not train close to giving bloods if they can. I know many times you have said to me yours do not get elevated. I am giving him my opinion and you can give him yours on the subject.
For reference I started the var 1/11/23 and I do legs hard af. I do rotate my lifts so I may hit them twice one week and once another week depending on how many days I work out. I never go less than 5 days but sometimes will do 6 out of 7 days. On this particular day my workout partners and I switched to a different leg workout than we normally do. More isolation work rather than compound lifts. Just for perspective.
TricepatopsThat could be it if you hit it harder then you have along with the Var. Thanks for letting me know when you started . Also one other thing could be is do you have legit Var. Some people fake it and use dbol or something else. Just trying to give you some things to think about as to why it is high. I get bloods every 3 months and my levels are normal and it doesn't matter if I lifted before or after. But when I add say an oral it raises mine. I also didn't work out for two years and started to lift and after 3 workouts I could barely move and had my bloods drawn and my Levels we're high. Not saying press is wrong but don't assume that those levels are that high just because of a leg workout. But your Alt is higher suggesting it is more liver. Your AST is where muscle breakdown from the muscles or heart or kidneys comes from.
I sent the var to a lab to be tested. So we will see how it comes back. It takes several weeks for it to get processed. I was never a huge oral user back in the day so I honestly don’t know what var should feel like. I stay lean so I didn’t notice any bloat and I didn’t get any crazy strength gains. Just been slow steady lean mass but I’ve definitely put on some muscle. I upped my TRT dose 1/3/23 from 160mg a week to 400mg a week. Then added the var on 1/11/23. The last 2 weeks have been the significant difference in my lifts and the guys I workout with have noticed the size difference. I gained 5lbs on the dot in the last 30 days.
TricepatopsThe test will tell. You sent it in blind right? Didn't let them know what it was? .Also since you posted bloods you can name the brands you are using.
Keep us updated on those Var and when the results come in will be curious about those results.
This is the best I can do from what I see, everything looks outstanding, except your liver, but you knew that. The fact that everything else looks great has me leaning in one direction and you’ll need to see a physician. Seeing that your ketones are also high I’m suspecting NAFL. Your levels aren’t high like a 3 day bachelor party or too many OTC anti-inflammatories would do, you’re in the triple digits. Personally, if it were me, and I’m not a Dr or judging, I’d stop everything for a month, including liver support (you want an accurate test result) cut carbs and fats, and get another test in a month. 30 days is enough to see an improvement if everything is functioning normally with the liver, at least see if levels drop. Hope this helps, stay healthy. Ketoacidosis is not something you want. Hope this helps.
It seems I was not nearly as concerned about those liver numbers being high as I should have been. I assumed this was something to expect when taking anavar at 50mg a day. I was seeing other blood tests from others taking orals with way higher numbers than mine and assumed I was pretty good considering. Thank you for the advice and it looks like the orals don’t work for me I guess. I don’t drink and I have been taking NAC. I did stop taking all my supplements 2 days before the test to not disrupt the results. I did have a leg day workout before taking this test. I was fasted and it was taken at 9:15AM. I assumed that the combination of this and the orals was the reason for the high numbers. I definitely don’t want to hurt myself though so I’ll take the advice and get back to TRT like I should be anyways. I just wanted to have a little fun but it’s not worth it to kill myself in the process. Again, thank you for the insight!
That’s what we’re all here for, help each other out in areas we’re knowledgeable about. A few days isn’t enough time for things to settle, but 30 is a good rule of thumb. If you don’t notice improvement by that time frame, see your PCP. A good leg workout will skew those numbers, but not into the triple digits. There’s no need to drop sources names, but are you positive it was Anavar you were taking? If not, it would explain EVERYTHING.
Well I am going to find out. I sent it in to a lab to be tested 3 days ago. I won’t have the results back for weeks though. It came from a top source, domestic. I have never taken orals really so I can’t be sure what to expect. I am super lean because I try really hard to stay that way so I just don’t know honestly if it was or was not var. My intention was to do a super mild cycle which is why I went with var from a top source. I didn’t get bloated or anything but again I stay lean so it’s hard to tell. Once I get the test results back though we shall know for sure. I should have waited for them to come back anyway before starting but I got excited lol.
NAC won't do much to help the Liver on its own, its main function is its use as an antidote against Paracetamol overdosing in hospitals to counteract the poisoning it does to the liver but only really for that medication. Sure its helpful in an overall supplement stack to help the liver and kidneys but not just by itself. The best liver protection is TUDCA, then Milk Thistle, Choline Bitartrate, Inositol etc.
TricepatopsYea your ALT and AST are pretty high. Var also affects the kidneys. But your kidney values look in check. If it was me I would drop the Var for 4 weeks and get a recheck if those ALT and AST go down then you know Var is the cause if they don't get down might want to get some more blood work to find out why these are high. AST also doesn't necessarily mean liver either it could be kidneys, heart or other organs. But like I said you Bun, Creatinine and the ratio of those 2 are normal so probably not kidney related.
The liver enzymes are not terrible but if I were you id like them under 100. Id switch to using liv52 and take 2 pills a day. It will drop those numbers.
TricepatopsUnder 100?? Honestly you want them in the 20s that is what healthy levels really should be at for someone who is physically active and in good shape. The range for AST is usually 8-48 and ALT is 7-55. Anything higher and that usually means something is wrong. The liver under stress or if AST is constantly high you might have anything between kidney, liver heart or some other problem where there is muscle. Edit. When going for those ranges I should mention like Makwa said some have levels that might be a little higher and as long as they are consistent for years then most should be fine. But you should not be much above the normal or below.
My liver values are typically in the 50-60 range. My doc is not concerned about that. He is aware that I am a bodybuilder and am not a so-called part of the normal population when it comes to ranges because of that. Creatine is also elevated which he expected and not concerned about that. He said if I was an 80 year old grandma then he would be concerned about those levels. He said what will raise concern is if the numbers continually creep up each checkup though.
TricepatopsThose are probably your normal liver values and if they have stayed the same for years then that is fine as the references are something to go by and don't always mean if your are above or below there is a problem. For me mine hang out in the 20s so when I do a oral cycle I go into the 50s and for me that is a big jump. You are definitely right about numbers going up as long as they stay the same and aren't way elevated then we are fine . I have a eGFr that I prefer higher but it has stayed consistent for years. My doc said the same 4 years and it hasn't changed much. But also some bloods are more elevated or lower depending on the time of day blood is drawn. Makwa you must have good creatinine to bun ratios,?
I think the most important thing is for people to get a good baseline. This needs to be done off AAS or anything else that could influence levels. Then we know how our body reacts to stresses we put on it such as bodybuilding, extreme dieting, AAS etc. Without that baseline we are really in the dark about our overall health cause like you said with the liver values yours are regularly in the 20 and if you hit 50-56's something would be awry, but nothing awry for me in the 50's.
I don't recall exact bun/creatine ratios but nothing was noteworthy with my urologist and primary doc. My doc is most concerned about my BP which is now under control and my cholesterol which needs some work. Orals can really mess up cholesterol and flip your HDL/LDL numbers which most people dont' think of when using orals. They only think liver values with them.
TricepatopsI like how you said get baseline off all AAS as that is the key. Then from there you can know what goes up to high or to low from baseline. Like you said for you a 70 wouldn't be bad for liver but me it would be Also definitely cholesterol levels are the other main thing I check when running orals they can change in a hurry and you don't want those LDLs high for long as those cause the plaque buildup which leads to heart disease, higher BP etc and even cause strokes. One good thing I read is they don't think HDL is as important as it use to be but I still want to read some more on that as this was just one study. Also those triglycerides need to be watched with the cholesterol. If I can find that HDL study I will try to post or send it to you.