-1 PCT Proviron, HCG, Nolva
So I'm running a simple 8 week test p 150ml EOD and Arimidex .25 EOD. For my PCT i only got Nolva. I was going to get HCG but i didnt see the point with 8 week cycle, now im starting to regret that. My cycle ends may 17 and I dont know if its worth it to buy HCG because lets say it takes 3 days for the payment to be received then another 11 days to ship thats 14 days right there minus my 21 days left and we got a week to run HCG. I do have Provrion to enough for 50mg ED for a little more then 2 weeks(throw into PCT?). So I guess what im saying is would i be fine just to run nolva? i know alot of people do it but i want to do it the best way. Also if anyone can think of a source that will ship HCG to US with T/a being like 5 days that would be awesome.
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Oh and what gymjunkie is saying to you isnt only about researching the compounds its researching how to run a cycle. Not this goes with this but i MUST have these PCT items on hand and (x) amount of test on hand to run my PLANNED cycle and then properly recover from it. I can see that you can read from that nice novel of information you posted but if you understood that(this comes with age or maturity) that to finish a AAS cycle properly involves soup to nuts diet, training, sleep, and then gear and you have to have all of the gear...you dont go to the doctor and he only gives you have of your medicine, do you?...thats the frustrating part for older guys, seeing young guys that dont need AAS yet do it, but worse than that do it wrong. If you cant afford everything you need than you have to wait till you can before you start any future cycles...good luck because you are learning the hardway
If i was you and poorly planned my PCT i would adjust my remaining doses to lower doses : say if you are taking 150 EOD than switch to 100 eod than 50 eod to expand your existence of test until your HcG or clomid arrives. Salvage this cycle by sacrificing a mild taper for a proper PCT otherwise poor planning is gonna lead to a HARDER recovery ... Good luck bro
Would tapering off like that cause me to loose any gains ? Assuming proper diet and following pct
Well I can have my clomid in time for sure , I was just a little worries on the importance of te HCG for this cycle . So I've decided to just run the normal
Clomid 100/100/50/50
Nolva 40/40/20/20
How much also would HCG make a difference in holding my gains for this Cycle( assuming diet an everything else is spot on .. Cause it is ) ?
Bro if your stuff is late and you screw up your PCT your gains will be shit and you risk a proper recovery of your balls..its possible a taper will hold you off till your pct arrives...good luck
You were wise enough to at least get the Nolva, but yes you should buy some Clomid ASAP and run it together with the Nolva. Dose I use that works is:
Clomid week 1-2 100mg ED week 3-4 50mg ED
Nolva: Week1-2 40mg ED, Week 3-4 20mg ED
HCG isn't really necissaryy for this cycle, but if you can get some easily just blast 1000ius the last week of cycle.
wow ... first of all get you some clomid ASAP.. along with your nolvadex that will make up your PCT.. NO YOUR NOT JUST FINE RUNNING NOLVA FOR PCT.. did you not do any reseach before you thought it was a good idea to run a damn cycle bro?? wtf.. shit like this pisses me off .. your 23 years old not only have you haphazadly put a half ass cycle together you have ZERO IDEA WHAT A PCT should be.. go up and read the forums under PCT and stop fucking around with your body your to young and have no reason to be messing with AAS
You know I actually do a lot of research . I came across multiple articles like this and a multitude of similar conclusion studies.
I have received a lot of heat lately about my preference for Nolvadex over Clomid, which I hold for all purposes of use (in the bodybuilding world anyway); as an anti-estrogen, an HDL (good) cholesterol-supporting drug, and as a testosterone-stimulating compound. Most people use Nolvadex to combat gynecomastia over Clomid anyway, so that is an easy sell. And for cholesterol, well, most bodybuilders unfortunately pay little attention to this important issue, so by way of disinterest, another easy opinion to discuss. But when it comes to using Nolvadex for increasing endogenous testosterone release, bodybuilders just do not want to hear it. They only seem to want Clomid. I can only guess that this is based on a long rooted misunderstanding of the actions of the two drugs. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the specifics for these two agents, and explain clearly the usefulness of Nolvadex for the specific purpose of increasing testosterone production.
Clomid and Nolvadex
I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). lh - leutenizing hormone - output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason bodybuilders persist in thinking that Clomid is the only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you will find with a little investigation however is that not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it should actually be the preferred agent of the two.
Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH
Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.
But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary lh - leutenizing hormone - in response. The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more lh - leutenizing hormone - will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more lh - leutenizing hormone - was released before treatment). As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and lh - leutenizing hormone - levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.
The Estrogen Clomid
The above discrepancies are likely explained by differences in the estrogenic nature of the two compounds. The researchers' clearly support this theory when commenting in their paper, "The difference in response might be attributable to the weak intrinsic estrogenic effect of Clomid, which in this study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin and testosterone/estradiol-binding globulin [SHBG] levels; this increase was not observed after tamoxifen treatment". In reviewing other theories later in the paper, such as interference by increased androgen or estrogen levels, they persist in noting that increases in these hormones were similar with both drug treatments, and state that," ?a role of the intrinsic estrogenic activity of Clomid which is practically absent in Tamoxifen seems the most probable explanation".
Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to Clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary. To find further support for this we can look at an in-vitro animal study published in the American Journal of Physiology in February 1981 (2). This paper looks at the effects of Clomid and Nolvadex on the GnRH stimulated release of lh - leutenizing hormone - from cultured rat pituitary cells. In this paper, it was noted that incubating cells with Clomid had a direct estrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cell sensitivity, exerting a weaker but still significant effect compared to estradiol. Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any significant effect on lh - leutenizing hormone - response. Furthermore it mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were incubated in the same culture.
Conclusion
To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid. This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - , and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of lh - leutenizing hormone - stimulation.
Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well. Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gynecomastia and elevation of endogenous testosterone.
Source : William Llewellyn