+ 6 How to retain muscle after a steroid cycle
There are an endless number of threads/articles/discussions about the importance of a proper pct, how to use AI's, HCG, SERMS et al. These discussions are very crucial, as the endocrine system must be restored to normalcy. However another critical component of the post cycle period is hardly discussed at all: How to train in order to keep the size one got from the cycle. In my many years of experience, I see athletes retain 2/3rds of the size and strength the got from the cycle, because they run a correct pct coupled with proper training.
We are all familiar with the fact that steroids increase protein synthesis dramatically, what many do not know or understand is that there is a second role that steroids play in building muscle: They blunt the effect of cortisol. Intense training (absolutely critical to building muscle) increases cortisol. Cortisol/Glucocorticoids induce rapid muscle breakdown and proximal muscle atrophy. Androgen’s suppress this process very effectively. Glucocorticoid-induced muscle atrophy: ... [Endocr Pract. 1999 Sep-Oct] - PubMed - NCBI.
This^ is a large part of why I run gear. I like to do an hour and 20 minutes of high intensity lifting, followed up 25 minute of maximal training hitting the bags. Steroids enable me to do so. There is no way I could do nearly 2 hours of maximal training bereft of androgens
What this all means is that our post cycle workouts must both retain muscle, while at the same time not elevating cortisol. Doing so is a delicate matter, and many, many trainees succumb to this conundrum. Some keep blasting away, desperately trying to do the same workouts as they did on gear. In the words of my favorite villain, Bane, “admirable....but mistaken.”
On the other hand, you have trainees (especially those foolish enough to not do a pct who simply stop working out. Of course they lose all muscle, in fact becoming smaller than they were at the beginning of their cycle.
There was a well written thread on another bodybuilding forum about how to train after a cycle. The author advocated one week off at the end of the cycle. This is actually not a bad idea. However the reason I do not advocate this strategy is that one week might lead to two.... Instead, I argue that one should take a few days off, being careful to set a limit, 3 days or so. I also suggest that they take a day off anytime they feel like doing so. On cycle, I will not miss workouts, I will just suck it up and push through it. Do not do this when off cycle. Doing so is hard for A type personalities, but important.
To understand the next suggestions, lets take a look at training and muscle growth: Muscle do not grow while lifting, The grow when we rest/eat/sleep. The weights are the stimulus for growth. I am a fan of Dorian Yates philosophy, which was a spin on Mike Mentzers “Heavy Duty” philosophy. That philosophy says that we should only do enough sets to stimulate growth, and that is it. Warm up, and then do a “working set.”
A working set requires maximal intensity, going to failure, and then either forced reps, drop sets, etc. You put your heart and soul into that set. Dorian Yates had a similar approach to training, except he advocated 2 working sets.
Myself, and with people I work with, I advocate 3 working sets while on cycle. Warm up and 3 working sets may look like a typical work out program, but is not.
Keep in mind that once you do the first warm up, you don't need warm up for the rest of your sets. So, you do 2-3 sets of bench to warm up followed by 3 working sets. On your next exercise, you do 3 sets total, the first to absolute failure, using rest pause, but no help from a spotter. Same with the second. And to be clear, I am talking about doing everything you can to absolute failure. If you are not training harder than 95% of the people in the gym, you are not training hard enough.
Also, we hit each angle of the muscle, and no more. You will go all out on the bench, but then do no more mid-chest work. No flat fly's, pec deck, nothing. So, 5-6 sets of mid chest, and then hit incline, say 3 sets of all out dumbbell incline presses, forced reps on the final set. Then 3 more for decline. If you do not have a spotter, then do drop sets. If you feel the need to do more sets, then your intensity was not high enough.
Also, when on, I do lots of cardio, 5-6 days a week between high intensity martial arts training, and incline tread mill @ 80% of max heart rate. When off, I still do 2-3 days of cardio. I am older, as big as I want to be and do sports that require a high degree of cardio. Also, I do cardio for health reasons.
As mentioned, if you are a younger guy or gal, trying to get big, you may want to cut out cardio altogether. Cardio will eat into your recovery. One compromise might be to do 20 minutes of low intensity cardio twice a week. You have to determine what is right for you.
Now, onto the topic of weights while off cycle. First, instead of 3 working sets, decrease to 2. Drop all forced reps, drop sets and other extreme effort techniques. Instead, go to 90-95% of maximal intensity. That means one rep less than absolute failure. Try to stay with the same weight you were using on cycle, but one rep less. Be careful, as post cycle is one of the easiest times to get injured.
Years ago, Dan Duchain pointed out research that indicated that the best rep scheme for increasing natural test production was 5. This was true especially for large muscle groups, namely squats and deadlifts. The catch is that these heavy basic lifts were going on during a time that the body was susceptible to injury. Lets unpack this scenario.
Some do pct using a “power pct” approach. That means a large amount of HCG is used for 2-3 weeks after the cycle having long esters. That would get you to the point where esters would clear, and SERMs could be effectively implemented. Others use small amounts of HCG on cycle, and short esters during the end enabling an immediate transition to SERMs. Either way the endocrine system is artificially propped up. As such, there is no need for heavy 5's to stimulate natural test production. I recommend higher reps during this period to prevent injury. Once the SERMs end, transition into the 5 rep schema, being sure to use perfect technique in order to avoid injury. Do so for 2 months, at which point start moving into higher reps and having enough off time to begin a new cycle.
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Biologic1Lets cut the bullshit: If I plagiarized the article, I am gone. If I prove I did not, you are gone. Either accept or stop running your keyboard.
I can provide all the necessary info to the mods. I can also provide proof of the IFBB pro I am working with. We also supplied 2 open class winners of the Governors cup in Sacramento last weekend. They all run only one brand of gear. It would break the rules if I named that brand, so I won't, at least if and until I get src approved.
Here is the main problem: People who are jealous haters try and F things up or the rest of us. Guys from MESO and TID have been inundating my good friend (and you all know there are pictures of him and me together) who is an IFBB pro. His family is the most important thing in the world to him.
You guys even got into a nasty spat with his wife. WTF? Are your life's so empty that you have to ruin things for everyone? Seriously, family are off limits. Say what you want about me, but going after a pros' wife is lower than whale shit. I know that you guys are part of the crew that are harassing him.
So do me a favor...and everyone else: Comment on the substance of the topic at hand. Right now, the topic is supposed to be how to retain muscle mass after going off gear. Try and contribute something to the topic, instead of ruining the discussion with your bullshit.
Trying to change the subject again? Since most people have to register over on the other site I will quote a followup someone did on you and your "knowledge"
These all came from ironden btw if needed i will link all names as well but lets see if hollywood and vike want me to; Im not going to jeopardize my membership here
Claiming 1.5iu's of hgh made you lose 6% bodyfat while gaining 11lbs.
1.5 iu's of HGH For Life
This is you posting:
we can make any strength GH we want. We also have Nords, and if everything goes according to plan I should be getting them for free, or at least significantly marked down.
Here you are again making "solid training advice"
Providing immensely dumb training advice
If you train legs twice a week they will not get sufficient rest for growth. Train them once every 6 or 7 days, no more.
Providing even dumber rationale
Training a bp twice a week will skyrocket your cortisol levels.
But wait! You prep IFBB pros but don't know if hgh is best run simultaneously with steroids?
Is HGH best run simultaneously w/ gear?
Do the pro bodybuilders you coach know you dont know a single thing about steroids?
Winstrol and/or anavar: Stacked or individually?
oh lol, heres you being a lying shill again
My thing is prepping elite level athletes for competition. I do programs for food, training, and steroid use. I am currently prepping an IFBB pro for the Dallas Europa and hopefully the Olympia. I have a handful of other guys, all gunning for NPC titles. They all run my gear. I am on trt and I do not even use my scripts test, since my product is every bit as good and much less expensive. I am also training a gal for bikini, and she is staying drug free.
so, just to recap:
you train "elite level athletes" (lol at calling pro bodybuilders this, but i digress) by giving them diet, training and steroid advice. Coincidentally, you don't know how to run anavar and winstrol, you dont know how to train, your understanding of recovery and training appears to be based on the latest FLEX mag, you dont know if GH should be run with steroids and you not-so-subtlety pimp whatever garbage source you work for (any strength GH you want!!). Oh, and you openly discuss the steroid use of an IFBB pro you claim to be prepping and do not understand why it would be a bad thing for a pro bodybuilder to admit to illegal drug use.
Here are some more posts how they outed you:
You're really gonna bring this soap opera shit here? I had heard you made a post about your VP position here. You're aware of how mugz feels about your lame boss..I know you are. I have told you that u were good in my book etc. Now you come to disrespect the boss here?
I knew that you were in this purely for the freebies and I've said as much. You're really that gullible to believe that these dumb fuks have labs in China and Venezuela and that the South American joint can make "any strength GH (they)want"? You're working for a 2 bit con man. I don't think I've over stepped any boundaries when I say you've worn out your welcome.
Keep this comedy to the board where your boss tried to rip off a bunch of kids and noobs....yourself included. You were terrified when the pro you are prepping for the Europa almost had to rely on creatine and whey for the final run up to the show. You still have Frank and the other pros in your "stable" boxing up orders and running to the post office to ship gear all around North America? GTFOOH.
Here is another followup:
I knew the push for sales was coming. I've been watching PC since I got here, knowing full well that he would eventually troll for customers on TID. He had no choice since being run off Meso along with his scamming source. Now that he's exposed himself, he's finished. Good riddance.
CBS
I think you would have been safe and under the radar really good; having also fooled a lot of people here; but the problem with your ego is you had to open your mouth and post on something a lot of us have LOTS of experience with. What new smoke and mirror are you going to use this time?
Biologic1Let me see if I have this straight: First, you claim that I am a fake, that I did not write the post.
You insist that the post was not written by me, but by guys on another forum. I just cut and pasted, yes?
In the next sentence you say that it is me, and that I am a liar and a scammer. You cite posts from guys with a personal agenda.
Which is it? I offer to leave if I do not return your PM on either of those sites, but you back down (still waiting for the PM).
Unfortunately, you start citing ignorant fools. These lies are damaging my labs reputation, so I have to address them. HOPEFULLY THE MODS CAN DELETE YOUR MISINFORMED POST, AND THIS POST.
Here are the real truths about the lot you are throwing yourself in with.
First, these guys are so f'ed up, they have been emailing the IFBB pro I am prepping for competition this summer. We hope to make the Olympia. He is 100% on my products and will use nothing else.
Tank is, above all else, a family man. I see him every 3 weeks, and he is always either picking his kids up, or dropping them off. Last week I had to wait an hour to deliver his "supplements" because the Disney movie he was at with his kids ran long.
So, the idiots from the other forum have been emailing Tank. Tank and I talked about it, and we both understand that thy are driven by petty jealousy and envious hate. Unfortunately, it did not stop with Tank.
After he told them to piss off, they started harassing his wife. His freakin wife! That is he most pathetic and reprehensible move ever. And these are the guys you are citing....do you really want to be thrown in with these scumbags? Really?
They are so stupid, they think my lab is owned by a former rep by the name of Stretch. Stretch was a rep, no more no less. He was an excellent rep, as a matter of fact. However, Bio is owned by B (and now me). Stretch did a fantastic job promoting Bio, excellent CS and TA. And until he started cutting product (he was also a shipper) and then disappearing, MESO was in love with him.
Stretch did a side deal with HK on Rips. He had gotten quite a bit of money fronted to him because everyone trusted him. However, he suddenly disappeared for 2 weeks. When he came back the board did a 180. He became public enemy #1. Everyone eventually got everything (I had $1.6k in the deal) but not before it became ugly. There was a massive shit storm.
At this point, the real owner, B came on, but everyone said that he was just a new handle for Stretch.
To this day, the geniuses over there are still convinced that Stretch IS Bio. He is not. In fact, Stretch still owes B $10k.
During this time, I built a relationship with B. He has been trying to get a foothold into the south american market. He does $25k a month in domestic business (none via the internet) wanted to buy a lab in Central/South America and start legally selling to pharmacies down there.
He needed money, and I purchased a half interest in our China lab. B has the lab in Venezuela, but is having difficulty getting the legal clearance to sell in legal pharmacies. It is costing a lot of money.
I wanted o become a src here because I thought arguments had to stay on topic. There would be one subject, and one only: The quality of the gear. Is the gear good? Was TA fast and was CS positive?
Judged on these criteria, I/Bio will do well. But I guess there is ignorant nonsense wherever one goes.
http://thinksteroids.com/forum/steroid-forum/how-retain-muscle-after-134...
To show you I am not a big ass you need to delete this post, you are sharing WAY too much info and putting yourself at risk. Chalk this up as lesson learned and be more humble.
Personally I'm tired of reading this rubbish. LOL I keep hoping they lock this thread out...
tip.... go to your profile click forum posts, click on this one, click blue edit button, scroll down hit delete.... boom gone. the mods will deal with you...... theres more too it, but im sure it will come out.
Biologic1I agree, I wan't it gone, now that the bullshit Grygst is citing is exposed..
However, I am not finding the forum posts tab. I found forum, but no only thread started, no individual posts.
Can the mods remove my post and lock this thread?
It has gotten beyond ridiculous, and I am done wasting my time.
go to your profile... click forum..... it will show your posts.... click on it..... edit button at top... click that.... go down ... delete
Biologic1I went to my profile, clicked on forum, it did not show posts. It only showed threads started. I clicked on that, and it sent me back to my original post.
But you know what? This whole thing has gotten way out of hand. All LE has to do is read these comments, go back to MESO or TID and I am fucked. I make my OP to help people. I have not heard one tiny bit of discussion of the principles I am laying out. Can you contribute any thing of substance to the issue of maintaining muscle mass after a cycle? This is an important topic, and it is a shame that you refuse to address it. If you and Grygst really wanted to help members you would contribute to the discussion, not hijack it.
I came here because I thought that discussions have to stay OT. You buy gear from a source. You use that gear, then you create a review. You discuss CS, TA and most importantly quality. On these factors I will excel. My products will speak volumes.
I very much hope that mods will clean all the bullshit out of this thread, and lock it.
yes and when you get to your post at the top there is a blue edit button. click that. go to bottom and theres a delete button. the old saying goes.... those who live in glass houses shouldnt throw stones.... you threatened a member and broke the glass..... i know more too.... i was a member of 3 other forums aswell, not anymore but i was...... you should be more carefull with your identity then mate thats not my fault... you are a self confessed drug dealer.... my only problems with you are 1. you threatened a member i respect. 2. your history elsewhere and the concern for other members safety and money.3 your self promoting. other than that its quite obvious you have experience. i will stay out of your way and hope you go well. please dont threaten my eroid bro again bcoz we stick together as a community in safety and you will lose by threatening. thank you.
Biologic1I followed the process, but it only lets me delete the original post. I don't want to do that as, with all due modesty, the article is important.
Just copy the original post and then delete this one. Start a new one.
Biologic1Thank you. Arguing does none of us any good, and robs the new guys of our knowledge. I am sure you have much to give, as do I.
Lets keep focused upon articulating information about body building, power lifting (did some back in the paleolithic era) diet, training, and responsible performance enhancement.
If you wish to think of me as friend, I would like that very much.
Any new guys, my shingle is always out to you if you need any help.
Grygst, I extend the Olive branch to you as well.
I wish everyone the best.
Olive branch accepted; for this I have some new found respect for you. I may have went overboard myself but this is me and I can't change that no matter how hard I try. BUT moving forward to protect yourself you might not want to share too much information like you do. This is the internet and anyone can read this PM a Mod and get this whole thread squashed and let's start over from the top. You cannot let your ego get the best of you; I sometimes make the same mistakes.
Biologic1Lets all hold cyber hands and sing.......
Kum bay ya, my Lord, kum bay ya;
Kum bay ya, my Lord, kum bay ya;
Kum bay ya, my Lord, kum bay ya,
O Lord, kum bay ya.
LOL. Can you do me a solid, brother? Can you delete that one huge post dredging up all the stuff from the other 2 boards?
Also, would you be interested in doing a review? We are stretched thin with the South American move, but I can heavily discount. And don't hold back, if there is anything negative, please lay it out. I am more interested in any bad than any good.
kum bay ya indeed, we knew it. people should have listened.
Unfortunately I can't delete or edit on this post.
Biologic1I really do want to remove the post, but it is also important to explain the truth. None of this bullshit needs to be aired here. My hand was forced because if I do not respond readers will think that the lies are true. I admit, I am somewhat arrogant and when challenged tend to brag more than I should. Also, I did not use GH until 7 months ago, that is true. But I am, w/ all due respect, extremely knowledgeable about gear and training. I prep champs (gear and diuretics) and read labs. I am honest and committed to fair business. My gear is excellent, and Stretch DOES NOT own Bio.
That is really h heart of the problem. All those fools go after BIO because they believe that Stretch owns Bio. He was just a Rep, and He burned B for $10k.
A mod is definitely needed. I hope that he removes my posts, and also the lies. I have a lot more info, but already have said too much.
I sent u fr out of respect and admiration. I have read quite a few of your posts, I would like you in my corner. Thanks
I do what I do out of general concern and care. Please friend me not out of admiration or respect but because you are part of our family. Even if I never meet half the people here they all became my family. We all laugh, we cry, we share common interests. The same in my life; if someone threatens the well being of my family; the pit bull in me comes out. I am overprotective and its all about being safe. This is our second home so it needs to be treated with respect. I will always have your back as long as you speak honesty and integrity. I have nothing to gain by lying and everything to gain by being myself.
i dont even know you, all i know is every other board and google say your scamming and a theif..... true or false?? or you dont want to go there??
I think the gig is up now. It might be a good idea to shut down and move on. you were kicked out of ironden for trying to sell after getting caught in numerous lies, kicked out of meso for being a part of a scammer ring. We cant and wont have that kind of shit on our watch.
x2 shill.
That's fucking sad dude... Do you really want to rip off a bodybuilder lol... Maybe he'll have more success at sell crack rocks lol
http://thinksteroids.com/forum/steroid-forum/how-retain-muscle-after-134...
http://www.theironden.com/forum/f24/holding-your-gains-after-steroids-18...
Should I continue to embarrass you? Just be honest dude, your like the little dude in the gym, trying to impress the big dudes, injury is inevitable.
Biologic1How are you embarrassing me? That is me, I am the author. The original idea came from a well written piece on TID. He advocated a full week off, and I advocated training every other day.
Its my intellectual property. Are you going to take the bet? Put up, or shut up. The rear double bi is me too.
I have other well written pieces. Better yet, ask me about other topics, pct, ester clearance, AI's, SERM's, how to run diuretics, etc.
Prove that's you, post a picture right now, with an eroids sign and stand in front of your computer... I see no evidence indicating you wrote the article. All you have is your word, which right now is tantamount to bird shit.
Biologic1Seriously, you want me to post a pic on a forum where I am petitioning to become a source? Are you that stupid? Do you think I am that stupid?
This is going to be my last post on this intellectual sinkhole. First, do you agree to our terms?
If I did not write the article, I leave. If I did, you and your band of merry men leave....agreed?
Other guys, do you want in on the deal? What if I sweeten the deal with cash?
OK, Grygst, go over to TID and PM me. Go over to MESO and PM me. If I respond, I win. If I don't, you win.
If you don't have the guts to take the bet, then drink a big cup of shut the fuck up.
I am done with this childishness.
All that will prove is you are on those sites; noone here is arguing anymore that you did not write those articles, our attention has shifted to find out why you are masquerading. BUT you are still here even after being exposed; the answer to that is because you have really nowhere else to go to try and peddle.
Here is a quote from Scarface:
Hey, Tony. Remember when I told you when you first started working for me, the guys that last in this business, are the guys who fly straight. Low-key, quiet. But the guys who want it all, chicas, champagne, flash... they don't last.
You bring your baby nuts, to the big boy forum and rip other people off, you insult respected members of the site and you want to put your shit source on here to scam people... I'm sure by the first light of the tomorrow morning your account will be banned, and you deserve it because your a fucking moron. Have a good day jerk off.
I am a member of ironden, hate me later please. they ripped him apart over there too. thanks for finding that but you helped me remember again.
http://www.theironden.com/forum/f33/have-you-met-any-professional-bodybu...
LOL no prob dude.. Eroid family sticks together.
This whole post was fkn Plagiarized from another site, unbelievable. here is the link to the full article guys, this should be taken down.
http://thinksteroids.com/forum/steroid-forum/how-retain-muscle-after-134...
Biologic1I wrote that post, fool. The picture is me on stage in my last show. I am petitioning as a source here. If you out my identity, then you risk sending me to jail. I have a family and a son.
If I go to jail because of you we are going to have a problem.
Seriously, you are playing with my freedom. Use your head.
I call your bluff, the way you write your response to comments below, don't reflect the way the informative above was structured. The information comes off more intelligent than calling someone a fool, and instantly getting defensive and verbally abusive, would you not agree?
lol, not off to a good start then hey internet tough guy, threatening a respected member aint going to get you far, lol and if you knew who it was who you are threatening you wouldn't do it again, you back street steroid peddlar.
Who the hell negged you? I thought it was a well structured comment. LOL
lol it was the man himself.... hes negged like 20 ppl but plussed no one he hasnt realised it doesnt matter till he hits 50.... wich he never will hahaha..... i think he is either vann damme or chuck norris, maybe even...... im not gonna go there it will come out who hes fronting for.
maybe he's the mysterious and ever elusive.. Chuck Vann Damme? LOL I'm surprise the band hammer hasn't fallen down on him.
Biologic1I put a lot of time and effort into that article. Are you two scholars not able to grasp and understand the principles and subjects under discussion?
Have you ever considered making a substantive contribution to the subject, or are you only able to instigate pissing matches?
I am wrirting up another piece on young men and steroids. Please keep your childish antics away, so that others may learn.
You claim to be "respected members." How about acting like it.
go back to meso pericles.
Listen, At this point forward you may have realized we are pretty tight knit here and our number 1 priority is to keep others safe. With that in mind you are new here, you came into another post talking about things you havent really researcbed properly and claimed experience to a high degree. Naturally I questioned it and then I did what I do best, researched. Be very careful here what you say, how experienced you claim to be even though I know the truth about that. I wont go into any more detail but if I get pushed I can push back even harder because I have nothing to hide. Tread careful brother and you will last a long time here and get your dues. bad advice and douchebaggery gets you a fast one way ticket. Other then that I truly am a nice guy, I care about safety and my family which tbese guys are a part of, and now you also want to be. Cheers!
Biologic1My friend, if you would like to put our differences aside, I am 100% willing to do the same...I might even send you a friend request, lol.
Just understand, I will never recommend an EQ only cycle, but if it works for you, then more power to you. My best friend, who sadly died from Nubain, was a power lifter. Powerlifters are really a cool bunch.
I am a competitive BBer (13 shows, won a couple) and we are self centered arrogant assholes:)
dont internet threaten me 1st of all.
Great post, +2.
I'm lucky enough to have trained around Dorian at his peak, the man was a machine. I've never seen anybody train with half the intensity before or since.
Damn brother that was awesome. Thanks for sharing your obvious knowledge of this game!
Good post.
I've been doing high volume sets for a couple years now and have reached a plaque. Going to try the yates approach and see how it works for me.
in week 4 of my PCT standard Clomid/Nolva and some Asin. Coming off a 15 week Test only cycle... Def hard keeping up.
Also started Pharma HGH 6 weeks ago. In hopes to assist
Biologic1You gotta cut back that volume to keep muscle. Keep running the GH. How much are you running? What is your age, and do you have IGF-1 labs?
After years of raining like that it just seems like I'm half assing my workout with only 2 working sets per exercise.. Just a matter of pushing myself my hardest with that volume and swallowing my pride a bit
age 27. Running 2ius or norditropin per day. No labs yet, but plan on it soon.