+ 14 AI: as needed or necessary?
As I browse through the forums, I am seeing more and more that some are keeping their AI on-hand in case of gyno flare ups or other sides. The majority here is aware of the necessity of AI’s on cycle, but I wanted to address this for the lesser informed.
What is an AI?
An AI is an aromatase inhibitor. Aromatase is an enzyme whose sole responsibility is to synthesize estrogen hormones – estrone and estradiol – from androgens via a process called aromatization. Because our bodies are physiologically programmed to maintain a state of balance – homeostasis – aromatase enzymes are synthesized in response to elevated androgen levels. Therefore and in general, the higher the level of adrogens, the higher the level of aromatase enzymes. The higher the level of enzymes, the greater the potential for hyperestrogenism (excess estrogen). AI’s act to inhibit the activity of the enzyme, thereby providing regulation of estrogen levels.
High Estrogen Symptoms
• Fluid retention and weight gain
• Fluctuations in body temperature
• Adult acne
• Depression, apathy, irritability and aggression due to a hormonal imbalance
• Decrease libido or impotence
• Prostate issues (inflammation or cancer)
• Gyno
Why an AI
Taking into consideration that our androgen levels are well in excess while on cycle, the fact arises that the potential for excess estrogen dramatically increases. By allowing estrogen levels to rise uncontrollably, we are opening ourselves up to a host of symptoms associated with high estrogen. Outside of the risks of gyno, there is also the concern of sexual dysfunction. How many times do we see comments or reviews where a lesser experienced user is claiming bunk gear due to decreased of libido? Often times digging a little deeper into the cycle log or history of this individual, we will find an improper cycle and AI issues. Although some of the symptoms are minor, with gyno and libido issues being the greatest concern, there is no need IMO to experience any of these sides if they can be avoided. Considering that once you have gyno, the only way to get rid of it is through surgical removal, we should realize that these sides are much easier to prevent than they are to reverse. The AI’s main role here is to achieve greater hormonal balance and provide control for the user so as to avoid the occurrence of sides.
One aspect that I want to add to this is the effects estrogen has on the gonadotropins – LH & FSH. Studies have proven that estrogen provides negative feedback towards the synthesis and secretion of both LH & FSH. This is detrimental to the overall objective of PCT, which is to reboot natty systems. These gonadotropins main role here is to stimulate production of testosterone. If estrogen levels are elevated and left unchecked, outside of the listed side effects, the suppression of the gonadotropins will compromise the goal of PCT. Therefore, it is imperative that balance be achieved in order to not only prevent side effects but to also allow for a proper PCT and reset.
Types of AI’s
There are two types of AI’s:
• Type 1 (irreversible steroidal inhibitors)
• Type 2 (non-steroidal inhibitors)
Type 1 inhibitors form a permanent and deactivating bond with the aromatase enzyme, so it never lets go even when the drug is discontinued or its active life expires. Type 2 inhibitors inhibit the synthesis of estrogen via reversible competition for the aromatase enzyme, which means that it binds reversibly. An example of an irreversible inhibitor would be Aromasin (exemestane). Examples of reversible inhibitors, or Type 2, would be * Letrozole (Femara) or Anastrozole (Arimidex)*.
Below is an excerpt from one of GS’s threads that does a great job of explaining the two types and their modes of action:
Aromatase Inhibitors come in 2 types. Type 1 and Type 2. First Type 1 AI's bind by a process called hydroxylation; this hydroxylation process produces an unbreakable covalent bond between the inhibitor and the enzyme protein. Now the enzyme is permanently blocked even after all of the inhibitor is removed and can only be resumed by new enzyme synthesis. Type 2 Inhibitors on the other hand function all the same in their ability to reduce the binding process of the enzyme and the receptor. Except once the drug is discontinued or the concentration of the drug is sparse enough it is possible for the enzyme to seperate itself from the Inhibitor and eventually will allow renewed competion between the Inhibitor and the Enzyme for the receptor site. Aromasin is a type 1 AI and once it does what it's purpose is we don't need to continue use. Letro and Adex are Type 2 Ai's and the success of those drugs are continigent on the Doses and protocol of which we use them. Once you stop them you expose yourself to an Estrogen rebound. Now having said all of that there are also many other reason to why Aromasin use is beneficial to a Bodybuilder. One is Arimidex/Anastrozole Decreases IGF-1 18% while Aromasin/Exemestane Increases IGF-1 28%. Another is Aromasin is also known to decrease estrogen between 90-95% while boosting Endogenous Testosterone by about 60%, and also help out your free to bound testosterone ratio by lowering levels of Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG), by about 20% (12)…SHBG is that nasty enzyme that binds to testosterone and renders it useless for building muscle
*The article can be read here: http://www.eroids.com/forum/steroids-qa/pct-anti-estrogens/pct-and-aromasin
How much AI?
This answer can be tricky, because some degree of trial and error must take place to find your individual “sweet spot”. In order to do this, the following recommended doses should be administered during your cycle, and then blood tests must be run to determine where your estradiol levels are presently. This data will guide you in determining what, if any, tweaks are appropriate.
Aromasin: 12.5mg EOD
Arimidex: 0.25mg E3D
Letro: ????
My personal preference is Aromasin. Adex will suffice in terms of controlling enzyme activity during cycle. Because the bond Adex forms is reversible, it can cause the bound enzymes to become released and renew competition once the drug has been discontinued or its active life has expired. For this reason, IMO, Adex should be tapered off and Aromasin introduced leading into PCT. I am also more fanatical about ED dosing of Aromasin vs EOD. With a drug half-life of 27 hrs, a lower dose of 6.25mg ED would IMO yield a more stable and better sustained level. Once again, blood tests are a must for confirming the individuals “sweet spot”.
Letro, once again, should be used in the case of an emergency such as gyno flares. Unfortunately, I am unable to find a solid or consistent recommended dosing schedule for Letro. I have found doses ranging from 0.5-2.5mg ED, as well as doses being administered as frequently as every 2 days. Letro does have a half-life of 2 days. Hopefully, someone with a bit more experience can elaborate on this aspect for us. One thing that I can say about Letro is that it will kill your estrogen. Because estrogen is active in the breast tissue during your gyno flares, eradication of the hormone will cause suppression of the symptom. With this in mind, you can and should expect to experience the symptoms of low estrogen (see below).
Now, keeping all of this in mind, I arrive at my final point:
TOO MUCH AI IS DETRIMENTAL AS WELL!!
The goal with incorporating an AI is to regulate the enzyme’s activity so as to avoid hyperestrogenism, not completely suppress it. Some estrogen is needed for normal physiological functions. Just like too much estrogen can lead to a host of side effects, so too can too little estrogen. Following the recommended dosages and running your blood work is key to achieving balance in this regard.
Low Estrogen Symptoms:
• Fatigue
• Weight gain
• Hot flashes and night sweats
• Depression, apathy, irritability and aggression due to a hormonal imbalance
• Insomnia or restless sleep
• Headaches
• Low libido or impotence
• Stiffness or joint pain
• Anxiety
• Heart palpitations
• Adult acne
So, guys, avoid adopting the mentality that an AI is good to have in the event of side occurences. One thing we cannot avoid without the use of an ancillary is the physiological function of the enzyme. Sides will occur; it's just a matter of time. These sides and symptoms are much easier to prevent than they are to reverse.
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So I have 0 symptoms of needing an Ai should I use small dosage every couple days or wait
Bump
Always have AI on hand or adjust Masteron as needed.
I am having some gyno issues and ready to a letro blast taper but im not sure how long to run it for it. since it kills estrogen pretty quick i would imagine you run it on a short blast but how long is short, 1 week, 2 weeks, a month. help please
im starting low .5 or less and working up to .2.5 if needed
I CAN NOT GET LABS DONE, I GOT A SNEAKY DOC and once that is in my med records it kills me for anything else. so i got to deal with it on my own
you are not ready for this lifestyle
Read
And please realize you may or may have already hurt your body with the mis use of these compounds
Least amount possible
Least duration possible
It clears up do two more days and stop
Privatemdlabs check it out
You need to get work ups here you go
the sad reality is very few aas users get to do it right the first time. most are not ready for the lifestyle. i am no less ready than anyone else, my problem was poor planning, i have no excuse for it. i learned the hard way, which i think ultimately being a bad experience will be something good for me. i will be more prepared and more willing to do what needs to be done, i will be more educated and more patient from this point on. i have been looking into private lab work. i have 2 places that will do it, cost is a little prohibitive but ill figure out a way to make it happen
Lil stroll down memory lane. Kinda funny to look back and see how we all bumped into each other and the assumptions that were made.
kinda interesting to revisit one of my older posts.
My bad was reading and did it by accident
don't put a budget on your health bro..
Doss,
About to start second cycle. First was a while back. My nipples have always been a little sensitive. Not due to first cycle. Should I just take an AI throughout the entire cycle. Start at avg. dose. If it gets worse bump it up a little? Or wait to see how they feel 1-2 weeks into? Plan on taking all short ester liquids more for dropping some LBS and cutting cycle.. Should I stay away from Tn P? I really want to add this but I have a feeling you are going to tell me not to use. What do you think? Have been reading posts really not sure what to do. Wanna get this going. Thx Bro sry if I sound like a dumb A**
AnonI actually start mine from the first day bc it helps me with sides. I also kick with prop
Great Info Thanks Bro!!
scootertrampThe BIG picture! Well written sir!
This was an awesome post and answered all my questions thanx
AnonYou're welcome
DIM (Di-Indole Methane) for those of you who want to try to keep it all natural. I'm currently on TRT at 150mg Test Cyp a week and 400mg a day of this stuff keeps my estrogen levels right where they need to be. It's pretty damn cheap too.
Thank you for the post...very informative!
Seems like Aromasin is the winner..And of course is my personal preference .
I just get worried about using Adex and forgetting a dose and having Estrogen rebound on me ..Bitch tits are not really in style right now .lol
great post
I think we're looking at a future mod right here! Nice post
thx bro this explained it perfectly
AnonNo problem
New2roidSorry guys but im completely new to these abbreviations, what does IMO mean?
AnonYou're good, bro. IMO means "in my opinion"
thx man...head up my ass and forgot to at least give 'em this Anyway, sent the bro a link that might help him out.
New2roidThanks again. Also thanks for the post it explains alot and in a easy to follow fofmat thanks!!
AnonYou're welcome bro.
hey bro...PM me. I can give you link that can probably answer alot of these abbreviations for you and save u time.
New2roidWhat does EOD mean?
AnonED = everday
E3D = ever 3 days
New2roidAwsome thnx
zewiEvery Other Day..
New2roidOh lol thanks
Good prost bro. I'll admit I used letro as an AI once. To be honest it worked ok. I only took 1mg once per week and everything was cool. However I recommend adex for all cycles, aromasin for most pct's, and letro as a last resort gyno blaster. +1
Thank you for the time you put forth in this write up. I just ordered aromasin and letro to have on hand just in case. better safe then sorry.+1 from me brother.
zewiGood read, good stuff below.
AnonI'm glad all the heavy hitters hit on this one. Thanks
Give them a vote if you find it helpful.
PermalinkNice lay out. I have had experience with letro once. I was on a run with high Test doses. I was using proviron with no AI. At the end of the cycle I discontinued the provi and started developing gyno. I had never had it prior and was pretty freaked out. I immediatly started an aggressive aromasin (25mg/ed) which stopped it from getting worse. I then started using letro. I used 0.5mg ed and within a week the gyno was pretty much gone. Warning, I felt like absolute shit from the letro. Lethargic, sore, achey, no appetite. It took me a little while to get over that but the letro did its job.
Exactly bro Ais should always be on cycle, who the fuck would wanna risk gyno or other prolactin sides?
Great Post bro.
New2roidWhats AIS
"Ancillaries"... Doss explained it up there bro read up.:)
Double post.
cdaddy7Very nice write up and I'm glad that u have touched on something that has weighed on my mind especially after my recent gyno flare...In the past I have recommended an EOD dose of Aromasin....I am now changing my thoughts based on the past experiences of my own and others that I have had to help land a bad estro bird...I feel that an AI should be a must on cycle no later began on week 2-3...my multiple experiences in help others with estro con control and in PCT have confirmed my thoughts...as well as my recent estro issue...A lot of times we say wait for issues but I noticed that we are very different in this aspect...One person may have signs and symptoms on a slight elevation yet the next the number is astronomical and when he has the signs its way too late...I have found a lot od issues using Adex vs. Aromasin bc of the estro rebound on cylce entering PCT...Letro is really a big gun bc it really squashes the estro down...ur joints and skin and libido will tell all in the first week of protocol but the problem is even with taper...I think Letro will bind up 98% give or take...but when u get off even if u taper the rebound is very significant warranting an AI like Aromasin to control the rebound...Often we have recommended using Aromasin 12.5mg EOD...I am no longer comfortable with that on cycle...I truly feel a dose of 6.25mg daily is way more effective in controlling estrogen bc of the half life...its only a 27 hr or so...big gap time in therapeutic levels...Adex has a longer life but I wonder if the gap should be closer to like every 2 days...See the major issue here is BLOODWORK....without it you are playing russian roulette with a bit of better odds but still a hit and miss....I do regular bloods and I still hit and miss...just like with my recent cycle of 1 Test...I was taking my AI as normal but EOD...I had my blood a s regular but I must have done it too soon for this compound and POW...gyno flare out of nowhere...my last e2 was 56....during my bout it jumped to 93 in a matter of 2 weeks...It was too high and I had to run a Letro protocol before more issues started....I ran Letro protocol and I have tapered down and going good with Aromasin...New compound so I kinda figured I might or might not have an issue based off of a theory of its binding to androgen receptor...My point is it changed my thoughts and the more research I did I am finding problems with Adex and even with Aromasin...we all know they are effective but are we utilizing them to be effective?????...I think our dosing protocols might be off a little but you know this will def be a person to person issue as anything else bc my body responds where anothers doesnt...I'm with doss...the answer lies between the lines...this is where the PCT with Aromasin that GS, Zewi and I might be the answer for Adex on cycle users...The crossover into PCT with Aromasin can prevent such rebound we are seeing in on cycle and even weeks after PCT...ONce again this is theoretical but so is everything we don on this site bc science has no use for our lifestyle as we all know...leaving us to be the new guinea pig...BLOODWORK will be the key to your sucess in this...Tread-m and I have spoken numerous time on bloodwork and mapping your roads....It's true bc how do u know if or what is going on inside your body....Signs and symptoms???....I can assure you by the time you experience them its alot further along then you thought....This same thing happens in Low T....u going a long and BOOM you below the reasonable range before you ever experience the first symptom...Great write up brother....+1 and I'm glad u opened a can of worms bc this has weighed heavy on me for quite a few days
True for guys in single digit cycle experience and when using new compounds. But I could almost tell u week for week what my body is doing bro. I could almost pinpoint what's going on in yours based on what u feel and are experiencing. That comes over the years bro.
It's why I tell guys to get to know their body. Getting to know what it does per dose per compound per stack. It all relates. Go slow with new compounds or adding extra compounds to a familiar stack. Learning what ur body does can help save ur ass.
So yesterday Inoticed i'm all edgy from my tren stack. I popped a caber just cuz I already know at wk 5-6 I'm about to have a big surge of prolactin due to the half lives of the Tren E and tren Hex. So i'm staying ahead of the game. I also upped my aromasin to absorb some of the brunt. But I already know this because I been there done that.
But getting to this point has taken years.
cdaddy7Yessir G....I am the same way...it has taken years to get to know my body with compounds an in the recent years I implemented bloodwork to really zero me in...This is exactly why we say one compound at a time...Bc how else can you know...Its all about the individual's "sweet spot"...It def takes many moons but for new gys the bloodwork can be ur bestest friend in this game until u get to know urself
Anonthanks for taking the time to add this. i appreciate your input. like you, i also run 6.25 ED. I found that helped tremendously with the acne. all other sides were fine for me with 12.5 EOD, but that acne was a little more tricky to control for me.
it's so true that we are all different in our own respect. you know, i have never experienced any gyno symptoms. when i first started out, i had no idea what i was doing and was oblivious to the scientific aspects of what we do. my advice came from a colleague of mine that has 20+ years under his belt. but he's never even heard of an AI nor does he do a PCT. long story there, but i would go by the "feel" of things most of the time and i can remember injecting EOD with sust and even adding the occasional bottle of tren. no real experience with me and tren other than this. never truely cycled off and ran for about a year this way. no gyno issues at all. but i had every other side effect. about a month or so before finding eroids, i hadn't even heard of an AI. sex drive had tanked for a couple months but i was still seeing good gains in the gym. aromasin was the first AI and the only one I have used. Sides went away within about a week, everything was back to normal. started a prop taper and cycled off. A LOT of info crammed into my big ole noggin since. I love this site! lol
the point i'm making, i suppose, is that i not only agree with you , but i have seen it in my own experiences. we possess individual reseptivities to these things. (is that even a real word?)
Give them a vote if you find it helpful.
PermalinkI also tend to have a first time user wait until he/she sees sides before using an AI. That way it can be logged and used as a method of reference. After they come to know their bodies they can start based off previous experience. I tend to need mine from day 1 and daily. Keeps my skin clear that way.
shirlsguyIdentifying signs is a bit tough... what about itchy nips? I'm really only doing TRT, plus a bit. Discussed nips with my GP in attempt to get Arimidex and he said itchy nips... not a problem to him. Of course, he thinks I am SUST250 every three weeks. More like bi-weekly and just changing to Test-C300 weekly. I have Aromasin on the way as well as PCT (nolva & Clomid) and am taking 6-OXO in the meantime.
With three weeks of 6-OXO 500mg daily in my system and up to this week only SUST 250 bi-weekly, I can't believe I would have onset of gyno. So, are itchy nips a sign of impending trouble or just normal response?
It's a common sign bro. There's many signs that would cause me to keep an eye on it. Itchy nips sore nips increased sensation in ur nips. Sometimes they come and go on cycle but definitely pay attention and be prepared to act with any of those brother.