mrbones's picture
mrbones
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+ 4 Shoulders

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So I recently commented asking for tips to grow my shoulders here is an example of a current workout. I change it up a lot kinda cycle heavy and light days. But take a look and let me know. If you could post your shoulder routine that would be cool too:-) I know a lot of it is genetics and time any other tips:-)? Sometimes looking at what others are doIng helps us see gaps in our training methods.

  • 7 sets lateral raises 12-15

-Hammer strength or barbell over head press 4 12-15

-dumbbell over head press 5 reps one side whiles iso hold otherside. Then reverse. Then 5 together now.

-Face rope pulls (post Delt) 3x 10-15. Pyramid up in weight. Start light isolate delt and get the feel.

-upright rows 3x 12-15

-forward dumbbell shoulder raises 4 x12-15

-reverse peck deck 4 x 15 double drop all 4 sets

-7 sets lateral raises with isometric contractions afterwards. (You can also do double drops in the last 2 sets drops if your feeling peppy.)

giardap's picture

Small tip for anyone who gives a f, that has had or wants to avoid shoulder joints issues.

Stabilise the thoracic (shoulders back pinching shoulderblades, and dropped down). Saves the rotator BIG time.
Also you can do side delts and save the rotator by externally rotating the shoulder and pointing thumb to sky (most people learn to point thumbs down for sides....). If you lean forward (stabilise on a bench if needed or worried about back) to the point where the side delt is the top most muscle and not the front.... you will now be doing side laterals with full protection for the rotator.

Mrcoolbeans's picture

Short and simple. Have a day for delts. Dot. Combined with “push days”/ chest. If so probably do two days. Week “push. But i like to train them in their own day. And test, time, and food brother.
All movements , 1-2 sets are more liek feel sets (reps are a little higher on those, then up the weight for lower reps.
Side lateral 6-7 sets 10-20 reps
Ohp or mili press 4-5 sets 6-20 reps
Uprightrow 3-4 sets 12-20 reps
Rear delt movement 4 sets 10-20 reps
Rear delt movement 4 sets 10-20 reps
Mili press 3-4 sets 10-14 reps
Shrugs 4-5 sets 12-30 reps
Front lateral raise 3-4 sets 10-20 reps
Side lateral machine 4 sets 10-20 reps

It’s alot! I know. But some are dropsets, etc. this usually takes me 50 mins to 1 hour 15 mins depending.

Muscle Freak's picture

Dumbbell overhead press 6-8 reps 4 sets
Arnold press 10 reps 3-4 sets
Upright rows supersetted with lateral raise 8 reps 4 sets
Heavy deadlift to shrugs 8 reps superset with face pulls
Bent over lateral raise 10 reps 3 sets

Hurts like hell

professer X's picture

Focus on rear delts as priority... chances are most guys front delts are decently developed from all the pressingand chest work. But what i see is development is not nearly as complete in rear and side delts. Start your shoulder workouts with rear delt stuff.. rope face pulls sets of 25... bent over reverse dumbell flys, rear delt flt/ pec machine ect....
Then go to side lateral/ press movements
...doing this has caused my delts to get that rounded capped look i was going for..

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bigbob's picture

best way to grow shoulders in my experience it just high reps getting a crazy pump in the muscle mostly (especially for rear delts) but heavy OHP should always be included.

Dballin412's picture

For shoulders I go low weight high rep high volume. Shoulders are the most commonly injured body part when weight training and I can attest to my injuries in tendons do to lifting heavy and really didn't see the results I wanted. When I switched to low weight I started really seeing good gains when going for high volume. Ifbb pro and my home city neighbor Seth Feroce is a big fan on thes types of workouts and he got some boulders!! I incorporate feeder workouts also for shoulders when I need them bigger. A typical shoulder day for me looks like this.

notes
*always stretch and warm muscles up first!
* pick a weight where 15-17 reps is failure.
* 60 seconds between sets
* pick up intensity throughout
* practice mind to muscle connection on every rep, stretch and contraction.
* stretch between sets to allow more space for blood flow.

Workout 1- 5 sets of 15 reps alternating lateral raise cable machine.
Workout 2 - 5 sets of 15 reps bent over rear delt raise w dumbells.
Workout 3- 5 sets of 15 reps shoulder press.
Workout 4- 5 sets of 15 reps supersetted. DB lateral raise strait into upright rows
Workout 5- 5 sets of 15 reps super sets. DB front raises, rear delt cables cross or machine.
Workout 6- DB Shrugs 4 drop sets
Ex
20 reps at 100lbs
30 reps 80lbs
40 reps 60 lbs
And repeat.

I don't focus a whole lot on front delts being that they get hit on chest day also. But doing this style versus my old heavy weight front medial and rear workouts produced far better gains in size and definition with way less tendon strain and pain. But the pumps will be extremely painful!! Lol

Dballin412's picture

And remember try to train instinctively. Do one more set or rep as needed. If your really feeling one particular movement keep hitting it etc

professer X's picture

Volume has a cumulative effect i believe...take a guy that trains 6 days a week versus a guy who trains 2 times a week and see who looks better.... train arms 1 time a week for 6 weeks and then hit them every other day fpr 6 weeks and compare results.....i have found that even on days where i feel strength is down i can use less weights and make up for it with extra sets and reps and still gain.....reps build muscle. Period

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Mrcoolbeans's picture

Some will say i overtrain
Keep in mind every 1 set is a feel set for me and the first few sets of my first workout is a warm up type

Mili press behind smith 6 sets
Side lateral 8 sets(3of which are dropset)
Rear lateral dumbbell 5 sets
Rear pec dec 5 sets
Mili press front side 4 sets
Shrugs 5 sets
Up right rows 4 sets

Just switched my routine up to a push type day and will include rear delts in that day but also rear delts in a back day.

vhman's picture

I’ve always done behind the neck barbell presses. They are my favorite shoulder exercise and I’ve always gotten solid results.

mrbones's picture

Nice. I forgot about that exercise:-). Just gotta remember not to go to heavy. I strain my neck if I do.

Bearded_muscle's picture

How many days a week?
I would consider separating the rowing and reverse pec deck and doing them with back. I think shoulders really need three days a week for size.
I do m/w/f with more of an emphasis on fronts mon, rears wed, and laterals Friday.

mrbones's picture

I usually only focus work them out once a week. And you know you hit them when you do chest as well. I could try breaking them up.

Swole's picture

I don’t think the volume is to high. Overtraining is not going to happen. Your body will adapt to what you throw at it. Believe me, as a former D1 Strength and condition coach some of the athletes I trained worked out 2x per day, almost everyday of the week.

However, I do agree that most of your emphasis should be on compound movements.

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Sam I Am's picture

I’m very much a volume guy but 30 sets is pushing it. It’s hard to maintain intensity on that many. The only bodybuilder I’ve ever heard of doing that many sets on shoulders was Serge Nubret. I do 19 on my shoulders twice a week.

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Swole's picture

I would agree with that, it’s not something you could jump right into. But over time volume/workload has to increase.

Yes, the bodybuilders of the 70’s used a crazy amount of volume and frequency. In my opinion they had the best physiques.

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helloBrooklyn's picture

High volume is great! Sometimes the volume can be better distributed, though, like you said. I train twice a day 4 days a week and do an hour of cardio minimum every day. I am not anti-volume, believe me. I don’t want to create the idea that I’m advocating low volume.

Swole's picture

Yes, I agree! Either volume needs to stay high, if that needs to be 2x per day do it, or frequency needs to increase. I think there are way too many people that are afraid of “overtraining”.

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Johnny Bravo's picture

Have you ever tried doing staggered sets between exercises for a diff muscle group? I have two torn labrums so pressing is out of the question right now so I spread the volume throughout the week. I’ll do sets of 25 bent over lateral raises between sets of deadlifts to remind me to keep my upper back tight and those TYI raises between squats for extra volume. If I could press I’d just go heavy one day though. I heard to do rear delt work at least a couple sets everyday but idk if that’s too much

Sam I Am's picture

I agree with that.

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mrbones's picture

Wow. An hour everyday. You maintain 220? You must eat a ton !

helloBrooklyn's picture

About 4,300 cals. It’s just LISS. I don’t like high intensity cardio. I only burn around 450-500 calories in an hour, according to the estimates. I do low intensity cardio for the unique systemic effects it has on blood vessels, particularly those surrounding the heart. HIIT is better for burning calories, burning calories, and improving body composition, but it doesn’t carry the same benefits LISS does for your heart and blood vessels. HIIT technically isn’t even aerobic exercise; it’s mostly anaerobic, so calling it cardio is debatable.

Bearded_muscle's picture

X2
Love reading your posts brother. Don’t always agree with you, but always value your thoughtful responses.

Dr.BroScience's picture

Bones too many sets with too many exercises.

Try to achieve the maximum output in the shortest amount of time.

After completely a full bodywarm up then it is straight to working sets of max output. 7 sets of lateral raises means you are not utilizing heavy enough proper weight in order to fatigue the muscle in a shorter amount of time.

Also prioritize your compound movements to the beginning of the routine. These are the bread and butter mass builders so it is best to hit them when you are fresh in order to achieve maximum output.

mrbones's picture

Thanks for the feed back. Honestly, I thought that might be the case but I wasn’t sure. Thanks brother

helloBrooklyn's picture

“Mind muscle connection” is west coast, hippie, pseudoscientific nonsense. If someone is performing a movement correctly, the muscle will contract to its fullest capability. That’s biological fact. The idea of having some profound, metaphysical link between body and mind is so new age and silly that I can’t believe it’s still a concept in an age of science.

“You gotta think about the muscle while you lift, maaaan. [bong rip; cough cough] That’s like… [cough]… how you grow, maaaaan. Like, think about it, dude.”

IrishMack's picture

Stop bringing science onto this site, you are fucking up the ratio of truth and fiction. Mind muscle is bromyth, but muscle memory is science. I think what happens is people get that mixed up. Nothing wrong with it unless you preach it.

Dr.BroScience's picture

Just be clear, Muscle memory is not the before stated, mind muscle connection.

Also to assume that complete mental focus on the mechanical kinetic execution of specific muscles during exercise is, in my opinion, shortsighted.

helloBrooklyn's picture

Haha, I love the way you put that.

Dr.BroScience's picture

Have to completely disagree , brother. Performing a movement correctly as you put it always requires a level of mind/ muscle connection. You mention in a previous post how important your focus is in the gym yet in the same post you discount the benefits of a mind/muscle connection. Is that not a specific type of focus? Very simply put, the power of the mind cannot be understated.

helloBrooklyn's picture

I’m not asserting that there’s no connection, merely that it’s focusing on the movement that achieves the desired effect, not the muscle itself. Mental cues are extremely important. I use them every time I lift and I’m extremely focused when I train. I have to be or I’ll fall out of my groove real quick. All I’m saying is that merely thinling about a particular muscle contracting doesn’t make it contract any harder than it would if the movement is focused on. If anything, it should be called “mind-movement connection.” What do you think?

I clarified this a bit here. The specific type of focus is ingraing neuromuscular patterns and remembering mental cues under the stress of mechanical tension. Of course neurology is extremely important to training, but some take mind muscle connection to mean something almost spiritual or profound. It’s not profound. It’s mastering technique, which we should all strive to do!

Dr.BroScience's picture

I certainly agree with your last statements. Certainly a technique. Not profound unless of course you have never experienced truly focused contraction and pump in that manner experienced in a certain area or specific muscle. Then it can be quite a profound revelation. Certainly not shaman worthy though.

Although, If you feel like hating on a bs training terminology , we can start bashing "muscle confusion" anytime you like

helloBrooklyn's picture

Muscle confusion is stupid

Dr.BroScience's picture

Sorry I cant do this curl, bro.

My bicep is too confused, man

mrbones's picture

You’ll be interested to learn. I was shocked my self I’ll go look for it. EMG testing of trained athletes resulted in like 30% increase in muscle gains. The study was performed by schoenfield too! I’m100% east coast ;-)

helloBrooklyn's picture

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/26700744/?i=2&from=/26896956/related

There’s one. I see articles about what Dr. Schoenfeld concluded but I can’t find the citation itself, even within the articles. My issue is the terminology. Why can’t we call it “using good form” or “joint angle specificity?” That’s all it is! The idea that just thinking about a muscle as it’s trained will yield better gains is ridiculous. I agree with the findings of these studies, but calling it “mind muscle connection” is goofy and misleading.

mrbones's picture

Also I emailed shoe directly for the citation so we should hear back:-)

mrbones's picture

I don’t think it’s goofy or crazy. The best bodybuilders in the world almost all they talk about is mind body connection. Just like almost all new strength gains in new lifter is neurological reaction timing (brain muscle connection in firing time). Thought action and intention is a huge part. A pysiological fact is that then your brain starts telling you , “no” you have 20 left in the tank. It’s a neurological self preservation mechanism. Our minds and training of it allows us to push past that barrier.
Lots of people have different opinions on training. However Hany and Palumbo believe in it and incorporate it. For me personally that’s all I need to say okay I’m here anyways might as well pay attention to what I’m doing and focus on where I need to feel the isolation.
Schoe is also at this moment the worlds for most authority on strength and conditioning. So if he’s suggesting it probly has some validity.
I’m here to learn and share ideas. If you have some good research on proof there is no connection I’d love to read it with a open mind brother.

IrishMack's picture

That is not mind muscle, that is your nervous system shooting you a warning that any more and you will break something. Thats why they talk about training that the most. Negative contractions and nervous system reactions are what builds the muscle. It takes force to lift something but the downlift is where the nervous system can be put to the extreme test. Next sets you do lift like normal but go really slow on your negative. Tell me how your muscle felt after a set. I bet it will be hard to move.

helloBrooklyn's picture

One of the biggest warning signs we have is our grip strength, which is why straps are so often advocated against for pulling movements. If someone is struggling to grip a weight he normally lifts no problem, that’s a clear signal that the nervous system is fatigued, and that he should stop and recover. With straps, this warning mechanism is removed entirely.

I’m sure you know this, but others may find it interesting

IrishMack's picture

Im always working on my grip, hence why I have popeye forearms. I lower weights when I work on negative contractions so its the muscle screaming at me not my wrists. I also take heavy dumb bells and carry them by my side to build grip.

helloBrooklyn's picture

I’m not asserting that there’s no connection, merely that it’s focusing on the movement that achieves the desired effect, not the muscle itself. Mental cues are extremely important. I use them every time I lift and I’m extremely focused when I train. I have to be or I’ll fall out of my groove real quick. All I’m saying is that merely thinling about a particular muscle contracting doesn’t make it contract any harder than it would if the movement is focused on. If anything, it should be called “mind-movement connection.” What do you think?

mrbones's picture

Gotcha Smile probly a better terminology!

helloBrooklyn's picture

30% increased muscle mass from what vs what?

mrbones's picture

Sometimes all the research I read gets jarbled together. haha

mrbones's picture

Sorry I meant 30% activation of the muscle during contraction. The two groups 1 had to think about the muscle activated the other just performed the exercise. Not only did it show a large difference but also you might also think: well the surrounding muscle activation will be greater in the group not concentrating on the particular muscle. This turned out to not be true the surround activation was equal in the two group.

Dr.BroScience's picture

Try , Hand close together, elbows flared out and up. Feel like you are pulling up and out from the elbows. Tremendous exercise for the traps and overall mass for the shoulder girdle. If you are having difficulty with the connection, try lightweight cables upright rows until you really feel it working

helloBrooklyn's picture

No, no! Hands close together is no bueno. Classic impingement position. Don’t take my word for it, ask literally any physical therapist. Wide snatch grip is safe on the shoulders for movements where the bar is pulled vertically with elbow flexion.

vhman's picture

I have shoulder issues and wider grip is the only way that I can do this exercise without pain. Good to know there is reasoning behind it.