+ 9 Protein intake debate: how is science and anecdote so far apart?
I’m a pretty science-y kind of guy. Anyone who’s read a decent amount of my posts knows this. But this is one dilemma I can’t reconcile through science alone: How much protein is needed to steadily gain muscle? This is not an informative thread, as I don’t have the answer. Honestly, I’m not sure anyone does.
Whom do we listen to? The supplement companies who recommend 2 grams per pound of body weight, who conveniently sell products to “help” you get there? But wait, plenty of old school guys who were training well before protein powders were palatable recommend these protocols. VIKINGEVOLUTION, a higly respected member here who has a history as a competitive bodybuilder, touts 2.2 grams of protein per body weight as the minimum. Jim Wendler, an accomplished strength athlete who wrote the classic training program “5/3/1,” similarly pushes 2 grams of protein per body weight at the absolute least to build muscle, so clearly this philosophy is not exclusive to bodybuilders. Are the supplement companies—despite their greedy intentions—actually correct?
Not all “bros” err on the side of high protein. Arnold Schwarzenegger sound familiar? Look up his protein intake. You may be surprised to find it stayed around 150 grams daily. Mike Mentzer? I’ve seen accounts of him going as low as 60 grams a day. To quote Mentzer:
“Protein requirements depend almost entirely on your bodyweight, not your level of physical activity, because it is not used as fuel as long as the body’s energy supply is adequate. The rule of thumb is one gram of protein per day for every two pounds of bodyweight.”
Less than a gram per kilogram of body weight, regardless of level of activity. Interesting. It’s a shame he wasn’t asked if the presence of anabolics is a factor to consider.
Dr. Nick Delgado, a Ph. D holder in health sciences, recommends even less, somewhere in the range of 45 g - 85 g of protein, only slightly higher than the World Health Organization’s RDA of 35 g a day. Seems low, huh?
Dr. Ellington Darden, a respected exercise researcher, refers to the idea of people who train needing high amounts of protein as being the single biggest misconception in fitness. Do average gym bros really know more than a Ph. D, or is this guy just a quack? (That’s not a rhetorical question, because I still don’t know.)
Dr. Darden, researching under Dr. Harold Schendel at Florida State University, concluded that extremely high protein diets aren’t just unnecessary, but enlarges your kidneys and liver over time, presenting risk factors. No shit?
The general scientific consensus nowadays seems to lie somewhere in the middle: 1.7-1.8 grams per kilogram of body weight for men seeking maximized muscle mass.
So from all that, I know… absolutely nothing. Information overload is one thing, but when the information is so drastically conflicting on a topic so important to us as people trying to build the most muscle possible, it’s hard to know what to believe. Myself? I won’t lie, I’m defying the science on this one and staying around 1.5 grams per pound of body weight. I’ve heard firsthand accounts of people dropping from a high protein diet to a lower protein diet and being either pleasantly surprised or bitterly disappointed. So, who knows?
I’ve been looking a long time, and I still don’t have a straight answer.
The most levelheaded “venting” post ever? Maybe. What’s your take on protein intake? (For the millionth time...)
MM Manore. August 2005. Exercise and the Institute of Medicine recommendations for nutrition.
P J Atherton, T Etheridge, P W Watt, D Wilkinson, A Selby, D Rankin, K Smith, M J Rennie. November 2010. Muscle full effect after oral protein: time-dependent concordance and discordance between human muscle protein synthesis and mTORC1 signaling.
Lemon PW. Int J Sport Nutr. 1998 Dec;8(4):426-47.
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I know this is an old thread but Ive been digging into protein timing and amounts this week. The post is great and the answers below are informative as well. Appreciated
Wealth of knowledge
Living4ThePumpProtein intake is a combination of optimizing the muscle building process and personal preference IMO. I just like to eat chicken breast, tons of greek yogurt and so on. That's why I'm getting at least 2.5g/kg even when bulking. Other people may don't like to eat tons of mostly protein containing foods and thus getting less than that. When bulking you obviously need not that much like when cutting just because you're in a calorie surplus and have enough nutrients etc. and that's a situation where I think 1.8g/kg are already plenty.
But from what the science says until now, you can optimize via :
1.) Getting 20-25g of a high quality protein source per email when ingesting the protein source alone i.e. a protein shake, but rather ~ 2.5g of leucine to maximal stimulate Muscle Protein Synthesis.
2.) When eating a whole meal containing additional carbs and fats, protein absorption gets delayed and thus 0.4g/kg-0.55g/kg protein per meal seems to maximize anabolism
3.) spread your protein intake over 4 meals per day, with 3-5 hours in between. Landing at a minimum of 1.6g/kg protein per day when consuming 0.4g/kg per meal and at a upper limit of 2.2g/kg when consuming 0.55g/kg protein per meal.
4.) Casein protein before bed seems to improve overnight recovery and Muscle Protein Synthesis. But literature suggests that here >= 40g of protein are needed to stimulate Muscle Protein Synthesis.
Thats a really nice question but i don't think there's an answer.
It's like they said below everyone acts different to protein.
I consum about 3.5g protein per kilogram and I'm getting good results.
But i know there are some people that response even to lower dose of protein.
I get where the confusion comes from generally. Its simply opinion versus fact. The academics have limuted technology and to date have only 1 really comprehensive study done for 1 specific bodypart... and for muscle protein sysnthesis thereby discluding requirementd for total body needs.... but; the muscle full hypothesis is the best explanation of what has been observed in studies and by people who have done it all in the trenches.
The facts to date are fairly straight forward; For quads at least! 20g aa's and probably just 5g leucine or so = MPS. MPS starts on the upswing upon absorbtion (30-45 mins) and stops by 90 mins after start, and aa levels back to baseline at 3 hrs... but.... any extra doesnt increase rates and extra supply doesnt continue mps beyond 90 mins.
So from that you can very easily state that by current knpwledge/for now;
It really isnt confusing, but at the same time... can we argue about individual metabolisms? Or weight? Or whatever?..... Definitely.... but it will be outliers... either genetic or forced.... 350lbs of meat on a human pin cushion is likely gonna need some extra input to very simply maintain only due to the very simple fact that such individuals enter catabolism SOOOOOOOoooooo fast, or literally when they stop eating. That's really not going to be helpful for any general guideline or rule of thumb that could apply to 99.5% of the BBing population.
If Arnold was happy with 3 eggs only, and I myself never experienced additional growth with 400g+ (7 large fillets a day + aminos upon waking + leucine before during after workouts + casein before bed or during night) of protein a day - conpared to 120g... then who the hell am I to go against all of that and against current scientific knowledge?!
basskiller89I consume toward the lower end. I average somewhere around 100-150 grams every day. I’ve never had problems gaining muscle. Some days I crave a lb burger and my totals end up 200+ grams. I’ve tried 300-400+ grams a day and never really noticed much difference in growth. I’ve trained people who respond amazingly to 300+ grams a day. I’ve trained people in similar situations as myself. I always lean towards advising others around 1-2g to be on the safer side. Some guys have to work up to the 2g mark. Some guys start to gain eating only 1g. I personally think everyone is different and trial and error is the true way to gauge protein intake. When I was younger I felt better eating a steady 300g. Placebo or not eating more protein allowed me to have better mental workouts. It’s definitely not a super cut and dry answer considering there’s only 440 grams of protein in a lb, less if we factor in water. I think more protein is better in most cases
I personally eat more protein because carbs tend to make me fat,however I don't go as high some report.Two grams per pound of body weight seem to be the norm in body building circles or at least 1.5g per lb lbm.Some of the greats however never even got close to these amounts.Mike Mentzer was a follower of Michio Kushi and believed one could achieve growth with only about 60 grams of total protein a day.He looked pretty good in my opinion,but if I ate the diet put forth in some of his books it would be hours of cardio a day or buy new pants every few weeks.lol Good post.
I’m assuming you mean carbs make you hold a lot of water? A calorie is a calorie is a calorie, and gaining or losing fat depends on total input relative to output, just from a thermodynamics standpoint. Unless you’re alluding to de novo lipogenesis, which is such a slow process that its net effect on fat gain is negligible even in the long run.
My cardiologist told me for every gram of carbs consumed I hold 4 grams of water. I’ve personally seen it when I switched from paleo to eating a shitload of carbs. Gained 11 lbs of water weight in 2 months and my blood pressure went into the 150s/130s without AAS. Needless to say he was not too happy with me and I’ve gotta go see him more often.
It’s better to acclimate to a higher carb diet slowly than to do it so suddenly
How slow is slow? I lowered intake but am probably not getting the calories I need and my BP is still higher than normal. I’m also concerned with my insulin sensitivity. If I don’t eat something every few hours I eat fatigued, dizzy, weak, and shake but I need the carbs to grow. Any help would be greatly appreciated
Actually,for me its the effect on insulin that fattens me up.Carbs,especially simple carbs have that effect.I don't mind carbs before and after a workout but the rest of the day I have to be careful.The calorie is a calorie myth has been debunked long ago.If it were true you could gain muscle on sugar cane and syrup,or an olive oil only diet,provided you took a multivitamine and minerals.
Chemically and physically it’s 100% true but it’s a myth in practice lol. The human body is an intricate machine, and I am nowhere near understanding it fully.
You are correct sir.A lot of older lifter agreed with the statement as well as doctors.Fred Hatfield who was a medical doctor and a power lifter use to say "calories is calories"all the time.He could also squat 1000 pounds and at one time held a world record.I have found for me,I have to be careful because of the insulin activity that carbs cause for me.We study,we learn,we lift.The truth is the body is as about as intricate as it gets,and they are all personal,and work different.The truth is medical pros are just now learning some of the things we,on this board discuss every day.Bodybuilding is the cutting edge!
Well technically he had a Ph. D, not an MD. He’s a good example though. His books are obviously a bit outdated, but still great resources.
That is not necessarily the case. It is alot easier for the body to store a fat molecule since it is already fat compared to say converting extra protein that would be needed to be converted to fat before it could be stored. It is much more metabolically ineficient for the body to convert protein and carbs into fat for storage than just shuttling a fat molecule into storage. I forget what the energy cost is to convert protein or carbs into a molecule of fat but there is some. Also that calorie I get from a Twinkie is not the same as the calorie I get from my sweet potato. One will wreck my insulin sensitivity fairly quickly which will make it a struggle to lose further fat. Also restrict calories for to low for too long and you will start suffering metabolic fatique which can bring fat loss to a screaming halt even though your cals are below baseline.
Cals in vs cals out is the underlying assumption for fat loss/gain but nutrient timing is an important component that many people overlook when trying to lose fat. I can take the same daily calories and macro ratio and if I focus most of those carbs around my pre/intra/post meals I can lose fat at a much more accelerated pace than say if I just spread those carb cals out throughout the day or even worse consumed most of them during breakfast. Nutrient timing is where the money is at if looking to make serious body composition changes.
I understand. Thank you for that. There’s a fine line between over complicating things and over simplifying them.
For most of the general population telling them to exercise more and eat less is the way to go. Start talking to them about nutrient timing, protein amounts, macro ratios, insulin sensitivity, etc and their eyes start glazing over but for us meatheads looking to make serious body composition changes it gets a whole lot more complicated and we really need to start understanding all of the little intricacies if we want to get anywhere.
Hmmmmm? So I wonder how many grams was in that 22 ounce steak and 2 pounds of ground turkey I ate today? And that was before 2pm..
But in all reality for me I know for a fact if I don’t at least consume 1.5 grams per pound of body weight I do loose size I’ve played with this over the years to know my body . On the flip side I see no difference in anything over 3 grams
Excellent write up Brooklyn and all the replys below I've read alot in the past year about Arnold and the old school lifters and their diets and i eventually just gave up on protein powders except those weeks when im on massive OT and don't have time to stop for a meal so I make my own power shakes with protein powder and raw oatmeal honey and eggs. My protein intake is between 150 and 275 a day mostly from solid food and that has always worked for the goals I wanted to achieve I will admit for some time i got caught up in relying on protein powders way to much till my son told me i needed to research them a little more and once I did well like i said i very rarely use them any more and all i use for pwo is bowl o oatmeal with lots of honey and bluberries or strawberrys and a mountain dew 1-1.5 hrs before my workout and works great for me!!
Dam Arnold only ate 150g per day just shows how different people's bodies are good write up bro
I heard the only thing Arnold ate was dball like skittles. In his videos he claimed he didn't eat very much food like one would think. That's how he kept the tinny waist
Arnold ate a lot of pooo-nanny. Not sure the protein count though, but it must be factored in.
Rustyhooker2gram per kilo was the origional dose.
Off cycle i try to stay between 200-250g. On cycle 300grams.
The old food gurus in the books always cited carbs are protein sparing. So keeping steady levels of complex carbs was key. We spiked out natural insulin levels half hour pwo with carbo force. Great pumps and didnt need bullshit cialis or dick pills just to work out.
LOL. Not to intentionally rustle any feathers here, but I’m really starting to find the increasing popularity of PWO injectables and blends to be a little ridiculous. The idea of injecting test base, tren base, cheque drops, whatever, before ONE workout that means so very little in the grand scheme of things is just so silly. Before an event in a strength sport I could see, but before training? The same with the OTC powders. Not only have they been shown to not do a damn thing insofar as eliciting additional hypertrophy gains, but, really, what’s wrong with a cup of coffee?
Notice I just gave my opinion—I didn’t say “don’t do it”—so don’t nobody go snowflake on me and get offended.
RustyhookerIts great to see a forum come together like this. Very nice! +2
I'm in the same line of thinking. My pre-workout is 6oz of death wish coffee that I cold brew (I don't like hot drinks), and maybe some carbolean. I don't want to start injecting shit just to work out. No knock on those that do.
As for protien. I like 1.5g per lb. I might up that a little closer to 1.75 if i'm on.
Probably a little overkill, but I'd rather not be shy. Plus, it seems like it's kind of in the middle of the 2g per lb/1g per lb argument.
nice forum +
Good write up broski! I am one of those right before junkies, I dont lie. Test base or tren base ect.. Buuuut, with that said, my body reacts well to those PWO compounds. I work long hours, travel for work, take care of a 2 year old daughter and by time I make it to the gym, my mental exhaustion is sucked. Is PWO a crutch, yes! of course it is, but for my current situation, it helps. I have this to be an ideal plan leading up to the gym, say around 1 hours before the gym:
-protein: 30 grams 1 hour prior
-10 grams of bcca: 1 hour prior
-5 g of taurine 30 mins prior
-PWO powder, 30 mins prior along with test base/oral tren.
I sip on another 10mg of BCCA during workout.
Assuming I have ate well all day and my intake is what it is supposed to be for my goal, because we all know there is not a cookie cutter layout, this varies depending on goals, I will have a great workout.
Chicken and Rice lately 4x a day. the cheap shit out a can with white rice, been growing like crazy!
Aye, see I don’t even remember what it’s like to train at night. Been training first thing in the early morning for years now. You do what you gotta do.
One thing I will mention—do with this information what you will—is that BCAAs have conclusively and thoroughly been shown to do absolutely nothing. No matter the amount, no matter when they were administered, no matter whether they were taken orally or fed intravenously through a drip… nothing. They. Do. Nothing. That is no longer up for debate.
This is a meta-analysis on BCAAs. Not a study, mind you, a meta-analysis which draws a single conclusion from many, many controlled studies:
https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12970-017-0184-9
Published just this year. I would urge you to not support a product that supplement companies are literally ripping people off with—seriously, it’s a flavored powder that does nothing being sold for $40 a tub—by not purchasing these products, but it’s your money, brother.
Hopefully this post saves you some cash for the holidays!
Good lord! I had no idea. Very good read! WTF! Do you drink anything during your workout besides water then? I always thought maybe waxy carbs are a substitute to spike insulin during workouts. I've invested who knows how much into BCCA. No more lol
Just water. I get all the glucose I need before training in my meal:
1 cup oatmeal
42 grams honey
35 grams blueberries
I also top it with cinnamon, which has been suggested to help with insulin sensitivity. It’s inconclusive but whatever; it tastes good so I don’t care if it does or doesn’t.
Very interesting, how do you take the honey? Straight up? Can you recommend a brand>
I just pour it right into the oatmeal after it’s cooked, measuring it by mass on a food scale. I use Walmart brand because it’s cheap, pure honey. The raw stuff is better. It has the EAAs and antioxidants that get lost when honey is filtered, but it’s too expensive. I just use it as a raw glucose source anyway.
Completely agree with the pwo powders. Not worth a heck of a lot in my experience. Ive tried an injectable before and it raised my aggression, but, I can do that on my own. 2 cuppa coffee does it every time.
Good topic btw. I've often wondered what the "ideal" amount is and if I am over eating protiens one meal and not enough at another. Or just over thinking the whole thing
I’d welcome you to consider why having an aggressive mindset while training is a good thing. What does high androgen presence lead to, that studies have found over, and over, and over? More risk-taking, more reckless behavior. What do you get when you combine androgens with aggressiveness? Even more risk-taking, reckless behavior. What happens when recklessness and weight training are combined for a long enough time, or in some cases just long enough to get unlucky?
POP
Next thing you know you’re in an orthopedic surgeon’s office trying your best to listen while he’s explaining that “a grade III tear will take about 5-6 months to heal after the operation before we can get you started on rehabilitate therapy” over the droning, repetitive inner monologue of “stupid… stupid… stupid…”
I’m not really directing this to you in particular. You’re a smart guy. But I’d urge a lot of guys around my age to get out of this “hardcore” mindset in the gym that leads to so many injuries. Okay, first of all it’s silly. It’s not warfare, it’s not savage, it’s not beast mode. Beast mode is a single mom working two jobs to support her child. Picking things up and putting them down in a climate controlled environment is a luxury. Second of all, it’s completely unnecessary to maximize gains. It’s been shown so conclusively in so many studies that going past about a 9/10 RPE does nothing at all for added strength or hypertrophy gains. Even Wendler, whom I cited above and is as hardcore as they come, says to NEVER take yourself to true failure in training. Go very, very close to it, right on that bleeding edge, but don’t quite go there (for compound AND isolation exercises). Save that for the platform.
I think we’ve all been in that doctors office at least a few times... in fact all my trips were before I even started AAS. Taught me not to let the drugs get to my head, which is an important lesson especially for the youngest of us.
As to your original post, this has been one of our greatest debates. Talking to prep coaches I’ve seen some variance in answers but most have agreed that you need to tailor a plan on an individual basis for absolutely optimal results. For your average joe who wants to look good and feel good these 1-2 gr/lb is fine, but for a competitor monitoring daily progress is a necessity. And as the drugs increase this compounds the issue of how individual the needs can be.
For example:
Athlete dials in his first show prep on 300 grams a day and places second. Adds tren thinking this will give him the edge his next prep with the same diet and comes in flat, places 9th.
All AAS demand a certain amount of calories above our natural bmr to do their job and the stronger ones more so.
Only years of practice and monitoring your own metabolism can answer this question.
Thanks for the great post +
I’m happy to say I’ve never been injured once. Not from training. I’m young but I have been training heavy and with high volume and frequency for a good while. I think it’s my connective tissue genetics, coupled with good form and full ROM. Never had so much as an ache. I’ll take it. I’d rather have great connective tissue genetics and decent muscle building genetics than the other way around.
I completely agree with what you say. Especially "Beast mode is a single mom working two jobs to support her child". I'm actually about as mellow of a person as you could hope to find in the gym. I become very mellow when Im there. I dont like feeling like I'm going to rip someones head off. Like you say. There is a place for that. Day to day training is probably not it. I dont listen to music the only pwo I take is coffee. I actually close my eyes every set I can and concentrate on my breathing. I find I lift more ,solid if you will. At 42 I feel fantastic and I want to keep it that way. One only has to google gym fails to see the enormous amount of morons lifting too heavy and quickly. Did they take something? Who knows but it would be interesting to see a study of how many injuries there are because of people being too hyped and jumping into a lift too quick. Anyway Im rambling, I know your comment wasnt directed at me. Even if it was, I'll get over it. I do enjoy your comments and posts, and the numerous times youve called me on somethimg Ive gotten incorrect. I do appreciate it as do others Im sure
Don’t know who the fuck negged that but I’m betting it was a fat thumb. Set you right.
Probably, I've done it may times myself. Its all good though. Thanks!