+ 9 Rethinking PCT - HCG v Clomid - Bollox v Brain - thoughts v evidence
Just thoughts.
I am exploring something different with my PCT at the moment.
Most people know I firmly take a holistic approach to PCT, leveraging the best tools available (or tolerated by the individual body).
I am going to document my current PCT path with bloods etc but I have experienced something different this time I wanted to share. I will post bloods next week when I have them to show what has happened (I am guessing at the moment so need the evidence myself).
You know I am a massive proponent of HCG both on cycle and for PCT (HCG is part of the original PCT of course - see my PCT/HCG postings).
Well this time, after a very very long tren into deca run, I always used hcg during the cycle, then allowed 7 weeks for deca to drain and 5 weeks for test E to drain. During the 5 weeks post last shot test, I used HCG for the first 3 weeks EOD and then just used it twice when I felt test dipping low enough to allow estro (which rode low all the while on cycle due to a very low test cycle and high deca, previously moderate tren) to approach crashing. using hcg only twice in week 4 brought my estro back up and kept me healthy.
Week 5 saw ZERO hcg usage, then blood test. Blood results next week.
However... I continued with no HCG into week 6 (week 6 would be the point where I run my ED 3 week HCG blast to fully ramp the nuts up), because, I feel my test is probably at low normal levels which would be absolutely ridiculously successful alone if LH is switched on too. Put it this way, I feel the test levels improving daily but need evidence. So, I feel my LH might have switched back on a chunk - bloods to prove this of course. There is definitely enough time for test to lower and hcg is well drained (hcg takes less than 5 days to fully drain and not be a factor, I had about 12 days maybe, before bloods.
So... if LH rebounded that fast, it proves: HCG is THE most important part of a well designed PCT, or at least maintaining your balls is the most important end-factor.
IT proves the pituitary can switch on again fast. (see my 19nor part 3 post to see **EXACTLY how severely shut down my pituitary was just a few weeks ago).
It also proves that 19nors dont shut us down the way people think... it is people shutting their testicles down that causes issues.
IF, that is... if what I suspect is true. If it is true, we absolutely MUST rethink what we are doing with regard to PCT. (these thoughts apply to those without pathological issues such as clinical hypogonadism, not AAS induced hypogonadism - hope that makes sense):.
Just thoughts.... bloods to follow....... bloods may prove me wrong... sure how many times have we heard someone say "I can feel it" LOL
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Ok...... so...... nope. i feel something but nope, not to the level i suspected and not to the point where it changes a pct approach. However it does prove hcg only approaches to pct are a fools errand. So thats a good outcome.
Lh is not up to an appreciable level. It is still below .5
There is also a possibiity here that there could be an argument for HCG as a TRT therapy, but it would require ai's and regular bloods.... so perhaps a drug-hoiday approach or something like that (just a thought really).
I spoke to the doctor and he reckons that it is pulsing on off but my pit is still asleep. Test is now at 20 which is about ok for my age. 650 or so.
So with this test level achieved i proved only that my balls work to the right level for my age.
The doc spoke to an endo for me. He said the HCG has disipated BUT it is estrogens (even though estradiol is not that high) that will keep the pit asleep. He also says it is likely weakly pulsing which accounts for a slow lowering of test and the sleep cycle working well which is seen by morning wood but then no obvious test symptoms in the evening, consistently. As opposed to the usual high test horny all day.
So on 1 hand... hcg kept my balls alive and once i prove the pit works we should be in good shape.
On the other hand... hcg with a half life of 28 hours, can disipate but its shut down effects at the pit last longer than the 5x half life it takes to leave the body. Test can take a lot longer to leave the body depending on levels, estro and pit action. We already know this but here is the proof.
I will post bloods when possible.
PcushionThe testicles almost always resume function. The hypothalamus is not producing GNRH and it won’t as long as estrogen conversion continues to happen in the HPTA ( which it does happen in the brain.) This is why Clomid is so imperative and actually superior to Nolva in terms of PCT clomid was designed to stimulate the hypothalamus and nolva was not. Fact is new studies suggest that Nolvadex isn’t even good for pct, I know this is going to piss of quite a few people but I have medical journals on this too. Lastly your conclusion 5 half life’s isn’t enough is indeed fact. I was trying to push my conversation with Makwa in this direction yesterday. He said PCT isn’t rocket science and I agree it’s not. That’s said it’s alot more complicated than previously thought. Males produce anywhere from 2.5-11 mg of testosterone a day. So you have to let body levels drop down this low before androgen levels also stop inhibiting the feed back loop. That’s why labs are a must. Three of four before cycle labs and you know how much test you produce in a day. Then you can implement half life. Half life’s are useless without labs to show how many half lives you need to let pass. Remember there are three variables that affect the HPTA loop. Androgen levels, brain derived estrogen, and circulating estrogen. You have to have all three in check before you can recover.
Hey man, you seem very knowledgeable about all of this, and you definitely have my attention here. I'm not going to pretend to be able to carry on an in depth conversation on PCT like you guys, but I have some questions about your protocol. I sent a friend request your way..
PcushionI accepted ask away my man.
P.S. it is my hypothesis that the testes dont always restore function, or do in a limited way each time until TRT time
I've just proven hcg restores them to 200 points above norm... so can the brain help hold that level, is the next question....?!
PcushionI agree. I believe the entire system gets slightly damaged every time a cycle is done. As for the brain holding levels, if the hcg made it rise 200 points above pre cycle base pre cycle I doubt it. If it was just an increase of 200 points but still not baseline levels absolutely they hold it and them some.
So this is my mission for this year.
To see if the brain will play ball.
Let me give you an example... when i turn on the keto diet, i get a clear100 point boost above base. So the brain is capable to maintain above the current base (did fat adaption for over a year....).
Ive been compiling methods, you can see the list in my trt forum post about increasing natural levels.
So first off complete pct, then measure where the brain settles after serm... thrn make a judgement on lifestyle and aromatase possibilities.
PcushionI see what where your going. What determines ones base levels... that’s a very interesting thought dude.
PcushionYes finally someone to think outside the box with.
Half life's arent useless!
What is truly useless is folks not realising that inhibin, estrogen and test all control negative feedback. And at 2 locations. But the pit itself can stay down too. Some of these are things i cannot measure.
Ive gone over my bloods again. Unless there are unmeasured estrogens causing an issue as you say, (which i seriously doubt).... and its not likely the test keeping lh low.... its at 650 so lh should pulse on/higher.... My estro is <50 which is the lower limit listed (i run well at about the low end)
I dont need test to drop any lower. It is endog test, mostly as produced by an exog source which is not in my system, measured by blood and urine.
Which leaves a sleepy pit and/or inhibin..... now yes aromatisation in the brain can play, but i reaĺly dont believe it to be the case. My pit has been shown to be heavily shutdown, prl almost crashed too..... inhibin/activin.... hmmmm.... as i cannot measure i will stick with the greater evidence which is of a physical shutdown. (My 19nor post shows the depth of shutdown across the hp). General levels are so low... it really seems unlikely to be aromatisation. However.. zero estro via a serm should cause the restart.
Thats means unless i use a gnrh agonist a serm is still the right tool. Clomid is best mono, yes, but i use the combo. I dont need zero test to restart successfully, just zero exog test and zero estro at the hyp via serm.
Oh re: the 2.5 to 11 of test....
So very true. And understanding the implications of why exog test still released at say .5mg per day 5 weeks post last shot.... why it can keep a pct from working fully..... so important
PcushionMajority of people have pct timing and drug dosages ass backwards. When it comes to the hpta axis the testiculs and pituitary bounce back very easy. The hypothalamus is the problem. Hypo produces GNRH (the first green light in Gonadal hormone secretion) furthermore modern scientists are finding direct links in brain aromatization of androgens (which happens in the hypo) and negative feedback on GNRH. So imagine that for one to recover rapidly the three major components are total androgen circulation, estrogen circulation, and brain derived estrogen. One must cover these three bases in order to recover rapidly. You do this your golden. Man I have an ass load of medical documentation on this stuff. Here is one just to get your wheels really turning.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2902157/
Last thought: If pct was as easy as everyone thought why are all the people on trt now days. Hit me up if you want to read more.
I'm interested. Send me the links please?
I've read this previously. will re-read cheers for sharing.
Timing and bloods... the 2 core pillars for any PCT. Sadly, the 2 things people refuse to do correctly.
PcushionAnytime dude. I had done my “research” and knew the basics thought I had pct all figured out and the doc just blew everything I thought I knew away. Been reading every since that was almost 8 years ago. That said man I run a pretty mean pct regimen.
Because they are to lazy and weak minded to do a pct. The YOLO's don't want to come off. PCT isn't rocket science.
I was on TRT before even using steroids.
PcushionI understand that TRT has a medical need. Needless to say TRT has fueled new studies about HPTA recovery. For someone like you or myself no PCT is not complicated but for the average AAS user to actually recover your HPTA after a cycle involves a knowledge of half lives and involves some serious timing. This whole start pct 2 weeks or 3 weeks after your last shot of enanthate or cypionate is just not true. Androgen levels have to be low enough for the body to respond to pct drugs and androgen levels are just one of three variables that can prevent HPTA recovery researchers are now finding. So when the average male produces 2.5-11 mg natural test a day... I know you understand where I am going with this but can the average user wrap there head around this adjust their pct accordingly? I am not making this stuff up man I have documented medical research on this subject.
I was on TRT before AAS. The why of it is because "old people problems" weren't an issue when all of us boomers were babies. Until recently, the focus has been on childhood diseases. Now, they are finding out how to tackle "old people issues". And big pharma is more than happy to help spread the awareness that your lack of enthusiasm, labido and energy can be helped.
Then you have the youngin's blasting and cruising who are now armed with a socially acceptable catch phrase. And a very small percent of those who actually have issues at a young age, and a smaller percent who fucked themselves up running AAS without any PCT protocol.
In fairness Greg, this very board has TRT people with EXP tags giving the youngins so called PCT advice that as good as guarantees they will end up TRT.
I am not blaming eroids, but it is real it happens here daily and can become a problem for those who do end up follow the EXP advice.
I'm not seeing a conflict between our two comments. I suspect anyone who is truly on TRT understands the process and offers the same advice as I do which is, "Stick with your doctor and follow the process".
The others are full of bullshit either going to a "men's wellness" clinic or simply cruising.
No, no, and I should have mentioned that some of the best advice on the ABC's of test usage/ endocrine system management has come from legit TRT folks.
Comment meant more as an observation than anything else really. We just see more numbers here, of people with aas induced hypogonadism, which is preventable.
PcushionThis was the point I was trying to convey. I know how to run a pct and I have not really seen anything like it on eroids. Indeed some of the top members are giving bad pct advice and I don’t think they even know it.
PcushionIt is indeed true that new light is being shed TRT. More people are on TRT than ever but if you look at the data the age group 18-45 has four times the amount of men of TRT than any other age group and further in 18-45 age group only 3-5 percent have natural hypogonadism. This is compared to the 30% that affects 65 and up. I am sure a lot of it has to do with the bottom line and big Pharma never the less lack of research about pct and how the body truly reacts I believe has led people to make decisions not directly in their best recovery interests. I also believe that the increasing number on men on TRT has fueled the new research being done.
jayisk"Well this time, after a very very long tren into deca run"
i think you meant test not tren?
No, tren... why?
(* very long... run)
jayiskJust a little confused. Was this recent or past. Cause if it was recent it would be surprising to hear that you ran tren.
Not looking to get into anything with you was just curious.., thats it.
Not recent, cutoff point was prior to tren study post
Deca/npp experiments began after that (Deca /npp solo etc etc),
I love tren, love it. Just cant run it anymore. Accumulated too much damage and / or tolerance has dropped too low.
Not a side to be seen in the old days. Used fkn love it, still do.
Man you amaze me over and over.Of course keeping you balls active makes PCT faster and more profound.HCG makes pct much better.I wouldn’t dream of pct without it.I think you are on to something with using while on cycle.Guess what,endo’s Agree with you.Almost everyone I know on trt are also using hcg at least once a week but usually twice.Keep bringing it!You are certainly on to something.
StevebNice
Another great and helpful post from u!
Good read Giard, the longer I'm in this life the more I realize just how important HCG is to a good cycle and a good PCT.
Alphamale500Couldn't agree more bro! To me, Hcg is a necessity when using test.
x2 agreed
Cant wait to see ur results also. Was this pct a hcg only or did u incorporate clomid/nolva and are just focusing on the hcg part of it? I'm guessing hcg only being ur "holistic approach".. Thanks for sharing brother
I am a HUGE fan of HCG! I have tried in numerous posts to convey the poor of this substance to bodybuilders. However, i guess I was not successful as my communication techniques were too direct perhaps.
Someday lifters will realize the full potential of this drug and it will make PCT an entirely new game, and other aspects of the sport.
Good post +
Damn G, you are a living science experiment....much respect for all the knowledge dropped on this community.....I’m definitely following this closely and can’t wait to see what the bloodwork shows, ...takes some real balls, ( no-homo and pun intended), to do these kinds of experiments on ones self and moving outside the box of the “ normal” pct procedure
Just thoughts for now brotherman. Even if bloods make a fool of me, I am happy to learn something, ya know?!
Thing is, it is the normal PCT that has probably caused most of the lads who wrote about it to end up TRT nowadays.
I might end up there yet, but I am fighting it for now, trying to get smarter about things and learn/listen to my body.
Fkn Ironic it has taken me 20 years to start thinking intelligently about these things! Oh well!!!
I sent a fr. I had a couple questions
Just consider the last 20 yrs was spent for r&d, ...always look at the positive side of these things...good luck with the research G!
Side note: it has taken me 30 yrs to conclude that the mullet is no longer in style, so it’s the shaved bald look for this guy.... so always take your time, gather all the info you can before making big decisions
Danny McBride almost brought it back!!
Im a shaved baldy too, i have ultimate respect for you now LOL
Cheers fella, enjoy your weekend!