posted Fri, 07/20/2018 - 02:06
4115
Nolvadex for anti-E during cycle?
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Fellas/gals, I have an abundance of nolvadex, pharma, for use. I always use them for PCT. Got into a brief argument with a workout partner. He uses nolvadex throughout his cycle. I said this is a no no, as Nolvadex will shut you down. He says his bloods come back normal. Has anyone used or uses nolvadex during their cylcle for their antiE? If so, would like to hear some dosing protocols, if I’m wrong and nolvadex can be used during cycle I would like to try this, as I have an abundance that expires soon.
Thanks everyone!
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If your looking for something site specific (preventing gyno, breast tissue) NOLVA works very well.
If your looking for something to lower estrogen systematically in the entire body, then an AI is best served.
Remember a good balance of estrogen is a good thing and needed for growth.
Short version first:
Estrogen blocker reduce gains, because balance between test and estrogens causes highest gains (dbol, test e, untreated! e.g.)
From Anabolic 10th Edition
quote
[Nolva..] When used by men (off-label) to mitigate the estrogenic effects of anabolic/androgenic steroid use, a daily dosage of 10-30 mg (1-3 tablets) is usually administered while any offending steroids are taken, or as part of a comprehensive post-cycle hormone recovery program. It is important to note that anti-estrogen use may slightly reduce gains made during a steroid cycle, as many androgenic/anabolic steroids seem to exhibit their most powerful anabolic effects when accompanied by a sufficient level of estrogen.
This may be one reason why gains made with a strong aromatizable androgen like
testosterone are usually more pronounced than those achieved with anabolic steroids that
aromatizes to a lower (or no) degree.
!!!!Therefore, it is usually advised to identify a specific
need for tamoxifen citrate before committing to its use during a cycle.
endquote
.
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From Anabolic 10th Edition
quote
Note that the triphenylethylene compounds (toremifene citrate, tamoxifen citrate, clomiphene
citrate) tend to be somewhat intrinsically estrogenic in the liver. This means that while they can block estrogenic activity in some areas of the body, they can actually act as estrogens in
this other key area. Estrogenic action in the liver is important in the regulation of serum
cholesterol (it tends to support HDL synthesis and LDL reductions). Since steroid-using
bodybuilders are already dealing with the negative cardiovascular effects of these drugs,
compounding the issue with aromatase inhibitors[...arimidex ] (which will lower total serum estrogen
levels) may not always be the best option. Using a drug that blocks gynecomastia, for
example, while at the same time supporting improved cholesterol values, might be much more
ideal.# endquote
On the other end Arimidex From Anabolic 10th Edition # quote
Anastrozole is an anti-estrogenic drug[...]It acts by blocking the enzyme aromatase,
subsequently blocking the production of estrogen in the body.[...] this is also the fundamental use of tamoxifen citrate (Nolvadex®), except Nolvadex blocks the action of estrogen at the receptor, not its actual
endogenous production. The effects of anastrozole can be very substantial, with a daily dose
of 1 mg (commonly 1 tablet) capable of producing estrogen suppression greater than 80% in
treated patients. [...]!!!!
When taken by men (as an off-label
use) to reduce estrogenicity during prolonged periods of steroid treatment, aromatase
inhibitors may increase cardiovascular disease (CVD) risk by retarding some beneficial
properties of estrogen on cholesterol values. Studies have demonstrated that when an
aromatizable steroid such as testosterone enanthate is taken in conjunction with an aromatase
inhibitor, suppression of HDL (good) cholesterol levels become significantly more
pronounced. Since the estrogen receptor agonist/antagonist Nolvadex® generally does not
display the same anti-estrogenic (negative) effect on cholesterol values, it is usually favored
over aromatase inhibitors for estrogen maintenance by male bodybuilders and athletes
concerned with cardiovascular health.
endquote
JayD718I've used nolva on cycle, but only for a short period of time, when some gyno issues popped up, and I was adjusting my A.I. It's not going to shut you down, but I don't think that nolva is appropriate by itself to control estrogen, because it only attaches to the estrogen receptors, and doesn't keep your total estrogen under control. Sure, it may keep your gyno issues under control, but there are other sides of high estrogen that need to be controlled inside the body that you may not be able to notice by eye. Serious sides like atherosclerosis, BPH, and many other high estrogen side effects need to be worried about as well.
Dak, What did you mean by nolvadex will shut you down?
I thought it would shut your estrogen down completely.
Yeah Dak, i do. I use it any time I take a higher test cycle or a cycle that causes test to aromatise because I am a high aromatiser. It can be used to compliment the de-esterification curve of test, so that you don't need too much aromatase inhibitor, or simply as a preventative measure if you have or are prone to gyno.
I manage peak delivery of test with an ai, then as the peak is dropping i use nolv if i need to, If you know your body you know what is happening on a daily basis.
I wouldn't use it just for the sake of it though and certainly not because of an expiry date. Dosing @ 10mg 1x per day (not everyday but specifically when needed/fitting with the test delivery curve) is plenty.
If you already have perfect estrogen management and have no gyno worries, then you dont really need it on cycle.
I agree .
My man, this is what I have recently discovered also.
Running 10mg of Nolva ED allows me to have my oestrogen running a little higher than normal without developing ‘knots’ in my chest which means I can run higher test courses and also get those sweet oestrogen gains!
Exactly!!!!
JayD718Sure the nolva will take care of your gyno worries, but what about the other sides of high estrogen levels, like atherosclerosis, bph, other cardiovascular problems and lipid side effects for just some? I don't think there's anything wrong with using nolva on cycle in addition to an a.i., if you are prone to gyno, but not just by itself to control gyno issues.
Well that is it Jay, and it is exactly why you need to learn your own body. There is quite literally a series of bodily reactions that follow with elevated estrogens. And that is why we must manage it when we need to.
For me it is, in chronological order: water retention, increased strength, red face, elevated bp, moon face, chest sensitivity, pec area excess water retention, gyno flare, elevated prolactin, emotional, loss of libido and so on.
So I use water retention as my surrogate marker for estrogens in a reactive fashion, but in fact will move a step ahead of that and manage estrogen creation before there in a spike, in a predictive fashion.
i.e. take a high test dose of mid ester, 12 hours later take 10/12.5mg aromasin every 12 hours for 2/3/4 doses depending on test dose. Shorter duration the better, of course. And this matches the mid ester delivery curve which peaks at 24 hours, by cutting estrogen maximally and irreversibly as the ester peaks, and as the peak is lowering back toward (still above normal) baseline. This must be done in an individual way of course.
So now you dont need tamoxifen necessarily. But it gets better again... if you happen to use a lot of a drug that doesnt aromatise in a meaningful way, like deca, and a very low dose of an aromatising drug like testosterone, then you no longer need an aromatase inhibitor either! no more balancing act, no more yoyo'ing with estrogens and prolactin which follows estrogens.
JayD718That's good information. For me, the first symptoms that I notice when my estrogen gets high, are sensitive nips, joint pain, and emotional. At times, it seems that my estrogen levels are hard to stay in that sweet spot, which is why I myself use nolva at times, while adjusting my a.i. I'm sick of using these UGL a.i.'s, because the one's I've used don't seem to work that good, so I have some pharma grade a.i. on the way. In the meantime, I'm actually using a research a.i. from a reputable r.c.source. It actually seems to work better than the UGL a.i. I have. But, the drawback to that is I have to drink that nasty shit, when I can just pop a pill. This is just so frustrating when you can't seem to stay in the sweet spot for estrogen.
Then, the best, literally the very best thing you could do for yourself is to run test very low. You simply wont need an ai and wont have estro problems.
Great thought and something I hadn’t considered mate. As I’m very gyno prone and fluctuations cause these knots so having it in the Arsenal gives me confidence. I ran it throughout my last bulk high test cycle however my current moderate test I’ve only used to to counteract an oral and also while I was dailing in my ai.
JayD718Yeah, I think that sounds alright. I also used nolva on cycle, when I began to notice some gyno symptoms, and I was adjusting my adex dosage. IMO, as long as you're already keeping your estrogen under control with an A.I., than I think it's alright to add nolva if you're prone to gyno. When you ran nolva throughout your high test bulk cycle, which A.I. were you also using, and at what dose?
Btw, have you ever experienced constant hard nips on cycle, but not really sensitive?-no homo. I recently experienced this, and I assumed it was related to high estrogen, but my latest bloodwork was good. You know, I read something about sensitive nips sometimes being a sign of androgen activity, and not high estrogen. What do you think about that?
F/r sent
Thanks G! Great advice. Got a question for you, did nolvadex affect you while running tren?
Since the advent of newer compounds I feel that Nolva on cycle is a rudimentary approach.
As you state, today for my money Aromasin is the tops in regards to on cycle estrogen control.
That being said Novla can be utilized during a cycle. In the 70's & 80's bodybuilders would use this compound exclusively for use on cycle to help with estrogen. When I remember back in the day I do not seem to remember too many bloated or unripped bodybuilders from that era
I agree except franco he fucked it up with nolva and got gyno on one of his pecs ! lol
JayD718Yep! You're right about that.
I would wager the lads who suffered with sides and oestrogen sensitive didn’t carry on in the lifestyle very long.
I noticed the same, no bloat and nolvadex was their go too!
Dont use nolvadex on cycle while using a 19nor roid like deca or tren. If youre staying away from those then i dont see any thing wrong with it. Aromasin is a better choice though.
This bro science been debunked 100 times mate.
Please show me some scientific evidence why you cant run nolvdex with a 19nov
I've ran it while using Deca many times..
I’m running tren, what effect does nolvadex have with 19nor? Educate me boss.
I might not have it all right but i think its cause an AI like aromosin stops testosterone from aromitizing into estrogen. And nolva as a serm blocks the respeptors. But with a 19nor there is a risk of prolactin. With nolva the estrogen is still in the body just not hitting the respeptors. So you are still at risk for prolactin gyno. Could be bro science. But its what i was always tought. Or it could be the somthing mixing with the stuff causing things n such?
JayD718I think you said that just right!
My gym buddie has only used nolvadex during cycle he takes 10 or 20 mg a day and he's never had a problem and he's a monster. I believe that the old school guys used nolvadex only because ai weren't around until the late 80s early 90s I know nolvadex is good for cholesterol. I've never done just nolvadex I'm a aromasin guy
JayD718Yeah, but he's never had a problem with what? Gyno? What about cardiovascular health, and what's going on inside his body? I think that you also have to be concerned with the sides that you can't see, and not just the cosmetic sides. I can totally see using nolva to complement an a.i. if you're prone to gyno, but estrogen cause other sides besides gyno.
Roger that broski! Aromasin does me well too. I’m seriously contemplating nolvadex during cycle. At least test the waters for a week at 10mg a day