Point of diminishing returns?
Hey all,
I have been thinking about this for some time and figured I would see what you all think.
I feel amazing on any level of test that brings me out of "normal". Also, me having higher than normal test levels improves everything related to fitness, [health, my vitals actually improve - perhaps more conscious about my health when cycling], libido, etc.
But I see people taking upwards of a gram of test (or more) per week. While I have no doubt that 1g/wk of test is more beneficial than 500mg/wk when diet, lifts, and sleep are maximized, at what point in time is more not more? I cant imagine 2g/wk is that much more beneficial than 1g/wk, especially with other compounds thrown in. Perhaps I have this all wrong in my head, but I want to learn and understand why this is.
So I guess my questions are: why do some people take significantly more? Is it because their bodies have gotten desensitized with time and AAS use? Or is more truly better? With that said, is there a point of diminishing returns?
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I think people forget when they grow 5 pounds they have to eat more just to maintain that 5 pounds. Plus adjust the diet accordingly..
so if your had good results on gaining some mass with 500 mg at 3,000 calories. Keep diet clean and bump up the calories Sticking point could be solved just by ADJUST DIET
+1
To all that have replied - You all have been great! I truly appreciate your feedback on this topic! The overwhelming consensus seems to be that a handful of moderately dosed compounds is more beneficial with fewer sides compared to really high dosed single compounds. Again, I appreciate everybody's input and I am enjoying learning about all this!
If anything it messes me up psychologically when running more than a gram of test and all the other compounds.
How so? What symptoms do you experience?
untill at least 600mg testosterone, there is linear growth. After that, who knows, no studies have been done at a higher dose than 600mg I think.
Actually increase in testosterone diminishes your health not improve it. Your immune system takes a big hit hence why most people on cycle get sick or the cold etc. People take more test because they think it's better when in reality it means more sides. They think they are getting big but it's more bloat due to exploding water retention and your hormone system trying to convert all that extra test to man boobs.
A very good point on the immune system hit. It being the testosterone increase itself is something I haven't put a whole ton of thought into, but after reading that, it adds up.
In my mind I had always figured the test flu was the bodies reaction to foreign substances (the oil, alcohol addiditives etc) - never considered it was actually the test
what about primo? Seems to help with t-cells and brings up white blood cells. I’d make the argument that primo has the potential to boost your immune system as long as it isn’t stacked with more toxic compounds.
Possible but all the studies I've seen show a drop in immune system function based on testosterone totals. If primo makes your test levels go over the standard range then it's affected.
Here is just one of the studies
https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2013/12/in-men-high-testosterone-...
How would primo raise your testosterone over standard levels?
Look up what Primo is.
I know what primo is. When taken alone, it will supress testosterone.
Look up the cascade of other effects. Specifically it’s impact on shbg and what happens to free testosterone levels. They go up.
I don’t think Mack was expecting anyone to be running it without at least an hrt level test base.
That would explain it better. And Yes, hrt should be the minimal, it was a bit context-less hence my question.
That’s a very good link, thanks for that.
You’re right about the standard range, I think the benefit is lost if testosterone goes above an hrt dose.
Thanks for providing evidence to back up your statement. I can see this happening. I was by no means running high test my last cycle (my first), but I did feel like I was on the verge of getting sick (you know that feeling when your throat starts to get sore and you think you're about to get sick?). Luckily I didn't.
jayiskrun gear as low as you can for as long as you can.
took me a long time to up my gear dosages and it was done slowly.
but my size, weight and strength have increased over that long period. so i upped it to keep up with my goals.
if BB or PL is a srs thing to you then at some point it will prob. need to be upped.
but if not keep it low and mix compounds up.
and always get reg. bloods done.
I'm seeing that to be true also. 2 months on just my prescription for trt. Dialing in my diet and keeping my lifts simple and consistent. The guys at work are looking at me ascantly saying bro how much gear are you running.
Keeping doses as low as possible for improvements seems to be the consensus. There doesn't seem to be much controversy there.
I agree, bloods are critical for longevity
Thanks for the input!
Dude I know you’re new, but just a heads up. We can’t have our faces in our profile pics. It’s not safe.
LOLOLOL you funny haha. In all honesty, I see that other have funny pictures, so that's what I was looking for scrolling through my camera roll. Eh, Shrek porking Donkey, why the fuck not.
Are you saying I look like Shrek? Perhaps, but not as green
I thought you were donkey... glad you cleared that up.
Haha just busting balls brother. Good shit
PallMallIf a person doesn't have the base built (weight, muscle maturity, sheer size, and leanness) then really high doses are going to cause more bad than good effects.
There's a theory of upregulation, where over time receptor quantity increases and dosages are raised higher as a result and also other drugs (hgh) can aid in utilizing larger doses.
It's totally a diminishing return using large doses if the body isn't ready.
From my personal experience; my first cycle was 500mg sust, worked great. I thought hey, let's try more sust and add deca. I mean it's gotta be better right? I ended up bloated to hell, swollen nipples and the worst body acne ever. I had to completely drop the deca and test wwwwaaaaayyy down and ended up with marginal progress.
If 300mg is still working and you're growing, why add anything else?
This is a good point.
WRT point #2. I have seen people take benedryl (or something along those lines) to "refresh" receptors during ECA or Clen (can't remember which, but doesn't matter for the point I am bringing up). Can you refresh or reduce receptors induced during a cycle, to say, keep sensitivity high?
Unless you're a competitive bodybuilder taking a gram of test or more should be out of the question. In my opinion smaller doses are quite effective for your needs. There is a point of diminishing returns with mega doses.
This seems to be the general consensus. I appreciate your input.
With that being said, how does one sense when "it's time to up the dose" mid cycle. Seems more difficult with long esters. Or is it usually a between cycle decision?
RustyhookerAge: 26
Height: 6
Weight: 250
BF:
Posting pix and priors helps with questions like yours
Me....im not a fan of just gram of test or 2 gram test. Im a huge supporter of smaller complex cycles. Let 2 or more chems work WITH eachother at lower doses each chem. Less sides. The con is moving to ed or eod pins.
Post your info and we open pandoras box
Alphamale500Yep. Stacking a few moderately dosed compounds that have synergistic effects when run together is a very effective and favorite method of mine as well! More my speed than running 1 compound in huge doses!
Very good advice Rusty!!!+(But do these +1's really even matter anymore, Lol!! Well, its part of the system here!)
RustyhookerIm just here to help folks avoid stress or issues. Thanks, updates on cycle is enough to bring a big smile. Especially when an op comes back super happy and much stronger.
You're a good dude!
Seems to be the consensus! Thanks for the input.
Everyone commenting seems to agree that a few smaller-moderately dosed compounds is better than one heavily dosed compound. Makes sense to me.
Hey Rustyhooker. Thanks for the reply. I will post a pic at the end of this cut :). In the meantime I updated weight and bf%. Kinda chunky, but have made large improvements since hiring a coach for nutrition and workouts. Added an avatar for shits and giggles.
While I am not currently interested in slamming large quantities of test, it is mind boggling that people do it (not judging, just surprised/impressed)! I have no doubt that they [usually] know what they are doing, but all other things being equal, does increasing test dose to >1g/wk really reap more significant benefits?
I think a more synergistic approach (such as you mention) seems to be more effective. Do you think smaller complex cycles are generally safer? Provided nutrition, liver supps, sleep, inhibitors, PCT, etc are spot on?
RustyhookerMore isnt better even looking at every possible angle. If you have e2 issues at 500mg a week you have a hell ride at a gram plus bp, bloat, larger cc more often, etc etc etc.
Safer? All cycles can permanently shut you down, cardio issues, bp etc etc. But...say you have no estro issues at 300mg, youre bloods are close to 3000 youre over double the natural. Thats positive anabolism. Roids only enhanse recovery. So without food and gym on point youre just messing up your system for what payback?
My first run was 300mg test only and added 15 solid. 2nd thru 4th were repeats with smaller gains...6 to 8 lbs but nothings gonna repeat first cycle. Then in spring add a small dose oral into cycle. I used 30mg winny last 4 weeks with the same 300. Worked!! Winter bulk...15mg REAL pharma dbol...WORKED!
Any chem has a point where it stops being effective. Take long periods of time off. Stay small on cycles as long as you can. Minimize cost, sides, and health issues. It only works as good as your physical output
Thanks for the info buddy! I always fucking love reading what those with more experience than me have to say :). I truly appreciate your input!
Just out of sheer curiosity. Whats your favorite compound?
RustyhookerFor straightforward eat and grow.... test and eq. Long slow cycle but if you crush the weights and foods then its solid.
Thanks for the input!