posted Sat, 01/19/2019 - 01:03
2037
+ 2 Serm with HRT?
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Hi,
Does anyone know the pros/cons of using a serm on hrt? Say 10-20mg nolva/day?
Most of my friends use an AI like arimidex on HRT but I believe arimidex is unhealthy due to crushing hdl/lipids.
I feel great when I run a small dose of serm along with my test (or without test). John Meadows takes 40mg nolvadex ED year around.
Thoughts?
Thanks
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Alphamale500Have you had bloodwork done that shows your estrogen levels are high? Because some people don't even need an AI with just a TRT dose. Anyway IMO, I think you are much better off using a low dose AI like Anastrozole or Exemestane instead of Nolvadex. If you're especially worried about your cholesterol levels and lipid profile, then Exemestane may be your best choice instead of Anastrozole or Letrozole, because it's known to be easier on your lipids than the other two. And if you're using the AI just for TRT, then you shouldn't have to use much at all anyhow, so crushing hdl/lipids shouldn't be a problem. Those effects on your hdl/lipids are more prone to people who are using larger doses for an extended period of time.
Nolvadex is really only gonna protect you from getting gyno, and not do anything for the big picture which is lowering your overall estrogen levels. There are more serious side effects to worry about caused by high estrogen levels than gyno, like heart and cardiovascular issues to start with. You need to protect yourself from heart and cardiovascular issues, among other possible serious sides also. And a very important thing to realize is, by using a low dose AI instead of Nolvadex, you're not making a choice to protect yourself from gyno or to protect yourself from heart and cardiovascular issues etc., you're actually helping to protect yourself from all of those side effects. The low dosed AI will lower your estrogen level to bring it within normal range, which will protect you from developing gyno and help protect you from the serious sides of high estrogen levels!
If you still don't want to use an AI, then I think you need to ask yourself which is important to your overall health, protecting yourself from gyno or keeping your estrogen levels within their normal range so you don't develop any heart or cardiovascular problems, or other serious issues down the road? To me, it's really a no-brainer.
Lastly, just because John Meadows uses whatever he uses, that shouldn't have any impact on what you use or should you even give a shit!
AI’s aren’t just bad for the lipid profile, there are a host of other side effects that accompany them. They dry out the joints too. I respect John Meadows and do ‘give a shit’ what he says. He coaches a friend who’s a local ifbb pro and preaches longevity. Estrogen, so long as within normal levels, is healthy and important. I see you’re new to our community. Welcome to Eroids.
Alphamale500Yes, AI's can be bad for your lipid profile and have other side effects. But you know what can be even worse? The sides from not using an AI if you need one and having a high E2 level! And do you think that Nolvadex is completely side effect free?
And where you wrote: "Estrogen, so long as within normal levels, is healthy and important." That's very true, and that's what I was trying to explain in my reply! Lowering your estrogen to a healthy normal level is the whole purpose of men who use gear using an AI. Like I said in my previous reply, Nolvadex will not lower your estrogen to a healthy level! It will just help protect you from developing gyno.
And I didn't mean any offense to John Meadows, nor did I mean that he doesn't know what he's talking about. I'm sure he does. I was just trying to say that you shouldn't just follow what someone else is taking just because of who they are. All I meant is everyone's body is different, and what works for him might not be best for you, that's all.
Thank you for your welcome!
Btw, you didn't answer the most important question. Does your bloodwork show that your E2 is high?
You are correct; (though I’ve gotten bloodwork three times in the last 18 months) it isn’t my policy to release this information. My question was general in nature. Thank you for your opinion/feedback.
Alphamale500That's cool if you don't wanna say whether your e2 is high or not. I didn't ask for the exact number, just if it was high or not. And I was only asking because that would of really helped to answer your question. But I respect your privacy. Alright, good luck bro.
Giving you +1 for being respectful, thanks
Alphamale500Thanks bro. I'm always respectful to people who are respectful to me as you certainly were! I'm a big believer in you get what you give.
Novel idearrrrr: dont use compounds (test) in amounts that allow the body to aromatise it to estrogen. Dont do that and you wont need an ai, or a SERM until PCT time (if you're not TRT that is).
A small amount of Nolva is ok. Wouldn't go higher than 10mg/day though.
Why would you take a SERM, which does not reduce Estrogen levels, but just competes with it at the receptor site (so it's really only useful for Gyno), as opposed to an Aromatase Inhibitor which actually prevents the conversion of Test to Estrogen? What are you trying to achieve? Most of your friends are using AIs - maybe there is some credibilty in some broscience after all.
https://www.steroidabuse.org/anti-estrogens/aromasin-exemestane/
The reasoning and theory is because a small amount of estrogen is healthy. The difference is that AI’s crush our lipid levels and have other cardiovascular suppressive side effects.
Fair comment. You will only crush your Estrogen by taking too much, but you can lower it to normal levels using AIs very quickly - within days, so that there is no negative lipid/cardiovascular effect, and then maintain that level hopefully through the SQ ED TRT regimen. Long term use of AIs is not necessary, unless there is some medical reason.
Also, not all AIs are the same - Letrozole will crash your Estrogen fairly quickly and at low doses, but it has a rebound effect - once stopped Estrogen will return, and often at higher levels than before taking Letrozole, especially if Letrozole is stopped abruptly. Exemestane is a 'suicidal' AI - it actually deactivates the Aromatase Enzyme rather than simply inhibiting it's converting of Testosterone to Estrogen, and it is less harsh on the Endocrine system than Letrozole.
SERMs do not lower Estrogen. They simply mimic Estrogen at receptor sites such as breast tissue so that Estrogen can not occupy those receptors. Their name is exactly what they do. A male can have very high Estrogen, and taking a SERM may alleviate or prevent some side effects of the high Estrogen, but they will not lower that person's Estrogen levels. In fact, SERMs were originally deveoped for women who were post-menapausal - that is, women who had low Estrogen. AIs were specifically developed to reduce Estrogen.
nolv less effective than clomid at the pit, but better at your mammaries
nolv will lower igf too a little which is no bueno for the androgen receptors as igf regulates certain proteins that block the AR's - so bits bad for growth, indirectly
Also, no clinical benefit to taking 40mg over 20mg, if meadows read the lit he would realise he is pointlessly overdosing (same goes for all bullshit PCT plans).
I've read a lot of threads of people taking 10mg a day and I've also read that nolva helps with good cholesterol don't take my advice unless I can prove it though
I’d like to read his reasoning as to why.
I’ll be looking into this.
I guess he’s been using it year round since 1999. Says it’s one of the most underrated things available...doing some more digging myself lmk what you come up with brother.
Rustyhooker40mg sounds huge. I run bout 10mg as a blocker if needed. Plus the raise in testosterone effect, long half life. Ill be interested in learning from this post.
I feel great on 20-40mg nolva personally
RustyhookerThe testosterone raise...yup. Maybe its me but 10mg and im happy horney. It would seem that it could have many plusses....but the minus side too. Hmmm..?
Honestly i dont really know but my thoughts are that if jon meadows takes it year round it is most likely not bad for you. He is a wealth of knowledge and from what I have seen he makes his health a priority.
And im not saying, “ jon meadows does it, so can you!”
Couldn’t agree more. JM is all about longevity in the sport.