+ 1 Very new & looking for advice on labs and testosterone
I am 59 and 5'6". I have worked out and been in shape before, but an injury really put me off everything for 5 years. In Oct, I was 220lbs with stomach issues, high-ish bp, cholesterol, etc. I started working out slowly, but changed my diet pretty radically. I started IF, ate whole & good quality foods, etc., and stopped drinking. I have ramped up working out, though recovery and a nagging shoulder injury are always my limiting factors.
I haven't done bad though, I am down to 167 today and I have managed to get myself looking and feeling significantly more fit. My arms look good IMO, but I still have gut and chest fat remaining which I hate. I want to get all of it off. My guess is that will happen at somewhere around 150-155lbs. Anyway, I decided to try test. I didn't know about this forum, and didn't know my numbers either. Even if I did know them, I really don't know what they mean or how they relate. I contacted an online place, and got labs and now have test cyp 200mg/dl. I have been taking 15 units EOD subq just to get started. It has been 2 weeks. I don't really feel any difference.
I have attached my initial labs as an image. I don't have SHBG values unfortunately. So what I am looking to do is recover better and get rid of the last 10-15lbs or so of fat. Obviously I would like to do that with the least muscle loss. I think my initial testosterone value was pretty high. I am not having kids (please God no), and so I don't care about preserving anything. I just want to look and feel fit/muscular into my 70's if I can. Anything that helps with recovery and growth that doesn't add a ton of complexity would be great. Thanks for any guidance or suggestions.
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To keep it simple for recovery and growth then just Testosterone. Do you want to be on the high end of normal levels? Do you want slightly higher than normal levels?
It sounds like you’re on 105mg of test cyp a week currently. Being only two weeks in you’re not going to feel any difference and you may never actually feel a difference no matter your dose.
Also if these are your initial labs I’m not sure 105mg’s a week is going to change your test levels much depending on how you respond to exogenous testosterone.
I don't mind being on the high end of normal. I don't mind a little more complexity either, as long as I feel like I understand the implications of what I am doing. I am starting to review the information here, but it will take me a bit to get up to speed for sure.
The suggestion from my provider was to go to 160mg. I was just just trying to be conservative because I don't know WTF I am doing, but I am definitely getting the impression that 105mg is probably a waste of time.
So I'll up my dose to 150mg and then get tested. Is 8 weeks enough time, or should I do that earlier or later? Thank you.
So my reasoning that 105mg a week might not be enough for what you want is based on what the community sees as an average per 100mg of test per week. It’s generally agreed most will see 500 total test per 100mg of test per week.
That being said your natural total test is almost 600. Taking exogenous testosterone will shut down your natural production. This is why I feel 105mg might keep you right where you’re at.
Now moving on some people do respond more to exogenous testosterone and some respond less. You could very well be a hyper responder achieve more than 500 total test per 100mg.
The only way to know is with bloodwork. You mention waiting 8 weeks? Thats a good idea being it takes time for the cypionate ester to fully saturate (science and stuff).
Now you mention being ok with adding other stuff. Being new to this and given your age I’d definitely stick with just test for a while. I started trt at 200mg a week when I was 33. It was incredible the gains I made compared to not taking testosterone. I’m 39 now and experiment with a bunch of different compounds at either high or low doses just out of curiosity.
If you want me to give my full opinion I’d crank it up to 200 mg a week and get bloods in 8 weeks. Biggest things to watch for with just test are lipids, hematocrit, and e2. All of these have multiple ways to be combatted if they become too high.
Your pinning schedule is fine. Personally I only go twice a week on cypionate. Wednesday evenings and Sunday mornings. Some guys prefer to pin more often to maintain steadier levels. Just preference.
Remember higher testosterone won’t magically help you lose that last bit of fat. Still need to stick to the basics of weight loss (calorie deficit). It definitely helps with recovery and overall well being.
You're such a smartie mc pee pants
I just went through @Pandateston post history and copied everything.
Hahahaha probably honestly not a bad approach.
“Chat got, make this sound like me and not panda”
“Now add some stuff in there about raping men”
“Perfedt”
Thank you again for taking the time to help me out! After thinking on it for a bit, what I will do is just go with the dosage my provider suggested which is 160. Then I'll get labs again and just see how things look and adjust up/down at that time. At least this way I'll get their perspective on what I should do from that point. I'll keep researching to make sure I understand all of this better by that time so I can make better decisions on where to go from there.
I AM NOT A DOCTOR.
But I will be completely honest, dude everything here looks great. I would just need to take a look at your lipids and full cholesterol panel. Everything is in perfect range otherwise.
I would advise you at your age you have two options. Do absolutely nothing, clean up your diet, continue training and continue doing cardio. If kids are not a priority, and you can entertain the idea of TRT, go ahead and do that. Right now with 15 units on a 200mg vial, that is a total of 120mg per week on a EOD routine. Love the injection frequency, this is even better, I would say two things, and this is being super picky.
Switch to Intramuscular, grab a 29 gauge 1/2 inch needle (this depends if you are lean enough to do so), and slightly raise your dose to 150mg a week. You want to keep creeping up your dose till you fall in that 800-1000 range where you'll feel great and mitigate any other issues. After this, TIME TIME TIME, be patient, give it at least 8-12 weeks before you decide "how you feel".
Goodluck brotha!
Thank you for the information! Can I ask why you prefer IM to subq? I just want to understand the difference. I am not sure if I am lean enough. My arms and legs are pretty lean. I still have fat around my belly button and LHs, and chest, but otherwise somewhat lean-ish. I have 2 scales which tell me 23% or so which probably means almost nothing, but it beats the over 30% I started at.
My cholesterol is a little high. My LDL is 134, which isn't great. Lipoprotein A is 29 and Apolipoprotein B 100 is 107.
I know this is long, but I love to help and for any newbies get into this realm to do this correctly and as accurate as possible. Knowledge is wealth, and wealth is health baby. DM me if you have any questions bro!
Perfect, thank you for the lipids. There are some very important things you need to track when starting either TRT or a cycle.
Here are, in my opinion, the biggest ones to look over and constantly manage to feel good and stay healthy: Hemoglobin, Hematocrit, WBC, RBC, LDL Cholesterol, Non-HDL Cholesterol, ApoB, CMP Panel, CBC Panel, Prolactin, PSA, SHBG, Total T, Free T, Bioavailable T, and Estrogen. Of course, there are a ton more, but these are the main catalysts when it comes to blood-drawn biomarkers.
Now, to answer your question, I'll give you the holistic BS answer and my personal answer.
Intramuscular is the traditional route of TRT. It has the most studies behind it, faster absorption, etc., etc., etc. I will not take anything away from subq injections, especially if SHBG is low and you are forced to run higher-frequency injection protocols.
Now, me personally, I started on subq because I was scared of bigger needles. It was fine, but it wasn't the result I was looking for. I switched over to delt injections with a 29-gauge 1/2-inch needle, which is considered a shallow IM injection, and it was a complete game changer for me.
Besides not getting little knots, PIP, and some of the other cons associated with subq, I felt instantly better from IM. It was a night-and-day difference for me when it came to IM vs. subq. Again, this will vary from person to person, but I personally loved the switch, how it made me feel, and how quickly I noticed the difference.
To touch upon your lipid panel, everything seems to be in range, which is good because you won't require any type of prescription medication.
If you do want to get things into a more "optimal" range, I personally don't and never will run a statin. The only prescription medication for cholesterol I would consider is Ezetimibe. I've only heard great things about it.
If you want to pass on the medication route, these are mandatory for me while on TRT:
Cholesterol Specific:
Citrus Bergamot - 1200mg
Berberine - 1200mg
Omega-3 Fish Oil - 3600mg (high DHA & EPA)
Red Yeast Rice - 1200mg
CoQ10 - 200mg
Nattokinase - 4000 FU
Liver Specific:
NAC - 1200mg
Milk Thistle - 1000mg
TUDCA - 500mg
Everyone complains that RYR doesn't contain enough of the active ingredient necessary to bring down cholesterol and that it can negatively impact liver enzymes over time. Personally, I don't care.
With this exact stack, I was able to lower my LDL from 130 to 93, raise my HDL from 36 to 42, and lower my ApoB from 107 to 85. This happened after only 12 weeks of use while also starting TRT at the same time.
Usually, lipids take a hit when you start TRT, but not when you maintain proper nutrition and diet, consistent daily cardio, proper training and great supplementation.
That is a lot of great information! I am definitely interested in bringing my numbers into a more optimal range, and so I'll give those things a try to see how it goes. I would love to be in range across the board just because. They definitely wanted to put me on statins because my calcium score wasn't great either (not sure what it was), but I am not thrilled with that plan.
Thanks for the subq vs IM info. It sounds like something that just has to be tested to be sure and I appreciate knowing that for some people one or the other simply works better. So what I will do is continue with subq through my next set of labs. At that point, I'll try IM for a couple of months and see if I feel any different.
I can't believe how helpful you folks are here. There is a lot to know starting out so I can't describe how much it means to get such great advise. Thank you!