42 yr- Cant gain muscle without too much fat - Please help
Hello All, I posted this in the diet clinic also; sorry if duplicate posting not allowed, but I thought this would a great place to seek help.
I am 42 years old tiny guy who is struggling to put muscle, but easily add fat. Here's my story:
Age: 42
Height: 5'5 - 5'6"
Weight: 135
BF: 15%
I started weight training 4 years ago. At that time I was 118 lbs with 15% BF. I started working out 3-4 times a week, following a standard program on bodybuilding.com which was split by body part - i.e. day1: chest/tricep, Day 2: legs, day 3: back/biceps, day 4: shoulders etc and steady state cardio on rest days.
I have been counting my calories and macros diligently (proteins 1.5 gram/lb lean mass, 35-40% carbs and rest fats). My maintenance calories were around 2000/day - so I would add about 200-250 with workouts; weigh myself weekly and continue to add 100-200/week as needed. I RARELY go out to eat; I prepare everything at home. I dont junk.
With 2-3 months of "clean bulking" and training, I would put about 5-6 lbs of weight. During initial years, my BF started to come down and seemed like I was getting somewhat bulkier with gain in weight. However, my progress was VERY SLOW in terms of putting muscle. I would gain SOME fat with every bulk, but could easily get shredded again with cutting.
My leanest was 130 lbs with 11% BF about a year ago. At that time, I had 6-pack abs (but with skinny legs and arms - with no shoulder or tricep definition).
For bulking, I have tried multiple programs on bodybuilding.com - with increasing intensity over time (most recently I tried a 12-week muscle program with super intense extreme last 4 weeks. All of these have required hard ass training for 4-5 days/week with cardio on rest days. By the end of my work-outs I am completely out of gas (i.e. I work my ass off on every day while bulking).
For cutting, I would do resistance training (variety of programs) with intermittent HIIT work-out/steady state.
initially I would just drop my calories from my maintenance by about 100-200 and then re-assess every week and adjust as needed. It was easy in the beginning to get rid of BF. Then, over time fat loss started to become a challenge. Then, I started Intermittent fasting (18/6 hr regimen) - it worked really well in the beginning, but with every cutting cycle - even that was not as effective as it used to be. Most recently I tried Ketogenic diet with Intermittent Fasting (with calorie deficit of course)- and my BF would not budge below 14-15%.
When I bulk, I eat every 3 hours. Here are my food choices:
For proteins, I have 1 scoop protein powder pre/post work-out each with BCAAs + creatinine. Other sources are: chicken tenderloins, 95-99% fat free turkey, egg whites (with 1 whole egg/day), salmon and beans.
Carbs: Oats, brown rice, quinoa, variety of other flours such as Amaranth, Teff and Millet. And lots of veggies. Fruits: Banana (per- workout), apple, blueberries (sometimes strawberries or papaya).
Fats: Nuts, peanut butter, avacado, olive oil.
My "clean bulk"/cutting phases have been ongoing for the past 4 years. Currently, I am 135 lbs with 15% BF. So, technically I have gained only about 10-15 lbs lean muscle over the past 4 years!!
My total testosterone is "borderline low normal" (free test not checked). I am not on TRT. I have low thyroid - but on treatment. My form on exercises is good (have been tested with a personal trainer).
I am so frustrated with everything now that I am ready to give AAS a try. But I am concerned that there is something wrong somewhere - either in my diet or the way that I exercise, that I would probably not gain much from AAS either unless I fix the underlying problem.
I am so sorry for such a long story, but I really really need your help. Any suggestion would be greatly appreciated. Please let me know if I can clarify anything.
Thank you so much in advance.
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Okaaaaay. Sooooo......
Your total test is up by close on 200 points right?
Whats going on there? Any ideas?
So look... i think its back to what i suggested before...
Did you take a proper look at your thyroid? Your T3 is bottom end of the range. So..... your T4 aint converting. There is no way a well dosed t4 is only yielding that little free t3.
You've got a thyroid balance problem dude and low thyroid is equated with low test and vice versa.
Im presuming you aint taking a thyroid med that has t3 in it too???
Have you been tested for antibodies, uptake binding etc? Recently that is.....
You're out of balance. Its not trt you need.
I see...
Increase in Test in a month - could that be related to Keto diet and giving my body complete rest (haven't work-out at all in 4-5 weeks now). Did not do anything fancy otherwise.
I am taking Synthroid and did not have antibodies tested recently. All these are good suggestions - I am seeing a new Endo soon and will discuss all these. Thanks man!
Well Keto will absolutely cause a significant bump as can the bodies natural rhythms. It hust strikes me as a combo of a few things... thyroid problems + thyroid med imbalance or not optimally dosed, low but fluctuating (positively) testo. Id wager all related but only and endo who investigates properly abd treats you ratger than ranges will know!
Ah great. No doubt thats the person to steer you the right direction.
I wish you the best of luck with it, keep us updated!
Yes, I saw another endo who increased levothyroxine a little + recommended starting TRT!!
She gave me two options - either weekly (which she said will be preferred) or every 2-weeks (which I preferred due to work schedule and high insurance co-pays). Will be starting every 2 week shots this weekend.
Thanks all for your help and suggestions.
Have you tried a simplified powerlifting program and cutting the cardio out?
No, not sole powerlifting per se. I did vary my rep ranges based on Y3T, FST-7 and bunch of other program.
Explain Y3T, FST-7.
These are bodybuilding programs on site -
Y3T by Neil Hill (https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/y3t-neil-hill-9-week-hardcore-video-tra...)
FST-7 by Hany Rambod (https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/fst-7-big-and-ripped-8-weeks-to-an-olym...)
Then Kris Gethin 12 week muscle builder
Basically pyramid style training, with rep range varying weekly from 3 - 30 (or even higher for some part)
I watched both of the vids. A lot of hype and not much detail in what you will be doing. I imagine it is all hypertrophy work. Which is good, if looks are you thing. I am doing my first hypertrophy routine and I like it!
I do think your test is low, I know people with test in your range and their doc put them on TRT. However I am no doctor.
I really think you should look into doing a basic powerlifting routine, with minimal cardio involve. Something like Grey Skull or Linear Progressing. They are fairly simple to do, but you will be doing them for a longer period of time and they get hard.
And easy one to get started is:
2 sets of 5 reps, and the third set is to 5 or failure. You will be doing the basic compound movements, bench press, over head press, back squat (to full depth) and deadlifts (no straps).
You will need to know your 1 rep max of each lift, as you will be starting out at 70% of your 1 rep max. Each passing week, you go up by a fraction plate (2.5Lbs).
An example of 4 weeks.
Week 1
Monday: Bench Press 3X5+ @ 135 Lbs / Backsquat 3x5+ @ 225 Lbs
Wednesday: Over head press 3x5+ @ 65Lbs / Deadlift 3x5+ @ 260 Lbs
Friday: Bench Press 3x5+ @ 135 Lbs / Backsquat+ @ 225Lbs
Week 2
Monday: Over Head Press 3x5+ @ 65 Lbs / Deadlift 3x5+ @ 260 Lbs
Wednesday: Bench Press 3x5+ @ 135 Lbs / Back Squat 3x5+ @ 225Lbs
Friday: Over Head Press 3x5+ @ 65 Lbs / Deadlift 3x5+ @ 260 Lbs
Week 3
Monday: Bench Press 3x5+ @ 140 Lbs / Backsquat 3x5+ @ 230 Lbs
Wednesday: Overhead Press 3x5+ @ 70 Lbs / Deadlift 3x5 @ 265Lbs
Friday: Bench Press 3x5+ @ 140 Lbs / Backsquat 3x5+ @ 230 Lbs
Week 4
Same as week two, but with a 5 Lb increment.
You will see a lot of strength gain from this.
Just got a repeat set of blood work done in early morning. Total and free testosterone are reported as "normal", but these seem to be low to me. My endocrinologist (new one now) said no need for TRT, as results are normal. Also, SHBG is pretty high.
What do I make of this "normal" testosterone levels?
Normal free test with high shbg doesn't add up.
What are the numbers? Total test, free test, shbg and e2?
Hey D, here are the numbers (from repeat blood work):
total Test: 379 ng/dL,
free test: 3.89ng/dL,
SHBG: 60 nmol/L,
E2: 2.1 ng/dL.
I also uploaded picture.
Sorry didn't see your pic... oof. Normal free test my butt hole. Total is technically normal though. That's rough. Have you tried DAA or Fadogia? If you're in the states I can PM you a good and cheap source for quality fadogia that works. Between the two you Might at least get you into low 500's.
The older guys can definitely guide you better there.
Aside from the health concerns of low e2 (which should straighten out after you get your test figured out), SHBG is def your biggest worry. If you can raise your free test into a good range it doesn't matter as much what your total is. What did your doc say about that?
If he offered no help. A) maybe try another doc that will have some guidance, and B) Have you read makwas forum on lowering SHBG? Check that out for some good info. Stinging nettle root is also supposedly helpful in binging to SHBG, but I think only anecdotal evidence. Nothing solid but worth a shot while waiting for professional guidance.
Sorry you're having such a rough go but keep your head up and props for seeing everything through and trying.
I am about to start DAA, + berberine (for potential insulin resistance) but did not try Fadogia. Would be great if you could PM me about that.
Yes, I read Makwa's post. I am already on Fish oil, Vit D, ZMA and DHEA. Did not try a couple of other supps he mentioned there.... but I guess I should now.
My new endo also denied TRT - said "nobody will give you TRT with these normal levels". I am seeking a third opinion now. Else, I will try it myself - about 50-100 mg/week or 150-200 mg every 2 weeks. That might be the easiest option (although not ideal).
Thanks!!
Word. I'll shoot ya a PM. If you don't mind keep me posted on the Berberine when you start it. I need all the feedback I can get on that.
Will do... really excited to try it out. Thx
One other thing. If you're going to be seeing a third doc for possible TRT, you might want a second opinion from one of the vets before you start using any supps that could raise your test befor you see him.
If you have a legit medical condition I don't know what the call is there. I'll send you the fadogia source just in case though.
Makes sense. I already had my blood work done 3 times now in 4 weeks - hope the doc wont need another one . I can wait to start any supps ...
Good luck man
I just hit the big 4-0. And I can tell you age is just a number. Do you. Feel confident in you. Praise yourself in what you do. But you have to want it and work for it. I wake up every morning and tell meself (dam u sexy). Besides the crowfeet trying to get on the sides of me eyeballs. Stay focused.
That sucks man. You are describing my low T symptoms. I worked hard for three years. Started running back in 2013 at 240 pounds and i was at 30% BF. In about a year, i was down to 190 pounds. I joined a gym and while I was strong, the gains where slow. It took me forever to go from 335 pound back squat to a 415 pound back squat. I was eating 5,000 calories a day at some points and my body fat started go right back up, my weight reached 220 pounds. When I would cut and try to loose weight, muscle and strength went first, body fat would barely budge. Talked to a few friends who had low T and they said i should get it checked out. booked an appointment for my doc and got it tested and boom, my T was 1 fucking 60. This was exactly a year ago. I have stayed at 220 pounds, my body fat is now about 15-20% range and I do not have to go so extreme on my diet to gain muscle and strength. When I cut weight, it is way easier to cut BF and keep muscle on me.
Hey there! Very nice to hear your story. So, are you on TRT now? If yes, did you run AAS also at some point or TRT alone was sufficient to do the magic?
I have now done a few cycles, after I started TRT. Yes, I am on trt. The TRT alone would of helped me make a lot of progress.
For my next "bulking cycle" I had originally planned for Arnold's Blueprint to mass program (which I think may be way overtraining for me). What general program would you guys recommend for my age/stats. I am guessing - 4 days intense work-out 2 days cardio (about 30 mins each steady state) and 1 day recovery. Woud that be OK?
All depends on your goals really
If its bulking, with food, I would recommend a periodised hypertrophy-oriented approach. I think if you do it right and incorporate enough hypertrophy based strength cycles in it at high intensity, in support of the hyperT focus, you will cause the body to release additional test and growth factors.
,
There are lots of plans out there.
That said, I think while your test is low, if I were you, I'd just get focussed on getting active and eating in a way that supports Testosterone production. Check out diets that are known to help raise test.
Are you on Levothyroxin or Synthroid? If so how good are you about taking your meds? Not just taking them once a day but in the case of Levothyroxin it needs to be taken on empty stomach and with a tall glass of water otherwise it wont be absorbed properly. Fr accepted
Thank you for accepting my FR. I am on Synthroid. I take it religiously daily first thing in AM as soon as I get up on empty stomach. Any other thoughts?
*TSH was super high (like >20 or so and free T3/free t4 super low) about 10 years ago. I have been on replacement therapy since then and TSH, free t3/4 all have been normal (latest one about 1 month ago). No inflammation.
That's great.
Do you know tbg? I doubt it's low. But if high you might not get enough hormone to the receptors. Also if proteins and cortisol are checked OK your receptors should be OK. But, you need to check vit A and other proteins than listed to know beyond crp and cortisol.
I am thinking you might have 2 problems. But you can rule 1 (thyroid) in or out by getting levels within a modern range if they are not and by being sure tbg isnt too low or high. Problem 2) your test has been lowered by this over time. As mentioned by others you need bloods. Look for interconnected relationships between prolactin, low LH, and low testo. Bear in mind that t3t4 can be nicely up but not hitting cells.
What about body temp? Do you get cold easily? You can check temp first thing in morning before food water shower etc. 7 days in rows and divide total by 7 check if body temp is lower than should be.
I'd like to see the most recent thyroid levels against the ranges you have been given. As with all things your levels may have been sliding over time? Are the ranges new ranges or old school ranges dating to your original diagnosis? This can be important.
What about testo now versus back in the day? Any idea what sort of change? Is there a correlation with any mess increases or prolactin increases etc?
For arguments sake. If you have 100% completely nailed perfect thyroid hormone levels... then you move on to focusing on testo but bloods will leave you there.
The key is probably going to be securing personal optimal levels within modern range as interpreted by a modern thinker experienced in thyroid issues. Bloods.... tbg, anything to do with receptor function/uptake antibodies etc, then prolactin, estrogen, lh etc.
If current doc/consultant isn't seeing a problem or is working to 'standardised' old ranges, you really need someone else that knows the way forward
I had a problem I think it was like a year ago. Maybe less. My bod temp was very low. I got a basal thermometer to test it. I bet you know, but it's a type that has a smaller range but is more precise. When I'd test immediately on waking, I couldn't even move the mercury. I think it goes down to 95.5 degrees. I'm trying to remember all the details, but I got a thyroid test. It came back ok. A friend with thyroid problems said it wasn't the correct test. I never followed up on it, but I'm tired a lot and would like to figure it out. I'll find the thermometer and start testing again. It sucks when you feel sick but feel too sick to give a crap enough to care that you feel sick. I just deal with being tired as part of normal now I think and keep moving on.
Yeah thats interesting dude.
If youre at 95-95.5 then its definitely low. If youve a low resting pulse rate too it might also thr 2 indicate a (pissibly) slow metabolism
So thrn youre into investigating thyroid, metabolic issues, adrenals etc
But uou know yourself, if you fibd yourself saying things like 'too sick to give a crap...." you need to have a think about things lile stress anxiety depression evem at a mild level ( and sub.optimal test levels can factor too of course)
Maybe dog your thyroid results out. If it doesnt show FRee T3 it doeant tell you about the active hormone....
I just uploaded picture of total T. The site isn't allowing me to post other pictures today. Will try tomorrow.
Also, latest total test was now even lower than before (now 230, with 250 being the lower limit of normal). My doc (endo) is checking total and free t, LH, FSH. For some reason, doc did not seem interested in writing for TRT even if repeat low. Said patch or gel would be good. This is the 2nd doc that I am seeing now! So frustrating.
Yeah, my total test was down in the mid 200's I forget the exact number. I felt like real crap. I started out on 400mg/ month. No joke that's what they gave me 1 400mg shot once a month. Idiots. I argued against that but my doctor said that's how it's done. Well when my test came back low a month after my shot 3 months later, he put me on 400mg every 2 weeks. Now they stoped giving the shots in house and I get to do it myself. I take 110mg twice a week (the vials from the pharmacy are always overfilled). Stability is the key. If you do get on it, don't let the doctors mess you up. Research and advocate for yourself.
I am in the same boat.... Just sucks how medical system operates! I am going to third endocrinologist looking for some help.
That's outright negligence
Dogs in the street could look at the pharmaco's of test and figure a better way to schedule it
Good you got it sorted in the end
Well, test patches/Gel = TRT brutha
fcuk man, 230 is wayyyy down, way down fella. If you feel shit, it's anything BUT normal.
Get a new endo man, you need someone who understands ranges are completely flawed and an endo that's person and solution oriented. My concern is that the thyroid issues are causing/fuelling/related to this, and if you go perm TRT it will not help you solve the root problem. Although, that said, getting test up via Hormone therapy temporarily would actually be a really good thing if you're feeling so shit - but only if treating a root cause, rather than only treating symptoms
Greetings fella. I think you should ignore training for a min, tune back out from diet for a minute, figure perhaps thyroid issues lowered testosterone ( for the moment at least ) and look at thyroid situ initially as you are on meds and it's known to drive T lower...
Was it around a year ago or so the thyroid issues started? / or when diagnosed?
Any idea if there was a catalyst?
What tests were done and what way did you approach treating it?
Before thyroid... were you (/are you) on meds..... ssri's/anti-d's or blood pressure or statins etc. Any meds or what have you...
Can you share a printout of bloods? Remove personal details of course
If no print then what was measured? Tsh, t3, t4, immune response, .......... basically I'm wondering on levels, stim response, post-response levels and also the inflammation situ if any (type of hypoT?
Also wondering if you identified an actual root cause?
Did you make lifestyle changes before meds or go straight to meds?
What's your doc like? MD/GP or endo/specialist Conservative or up to date/practicing new ranges etc?
Thanks man. Dont have the report of my tests handy, but my TSH was super high (like >20 or so and free T3/free t4 super low) about 10 years ago. I have been on replacement therapy since then and TSH, free t3/4 all have been normal (latest one about 1 month ago). I have them checked every 6 months and I am being followed by an endocrinologist. I also had AM cortisol, ESR, CRP checked - which have all been normal (i.e no inflammation and adrenals fine). I definitely need to have free testosterone and other hormones checked. I am not on SSRI or any anti-depressants or anything else.
Also you should Connect with Jaygainz
Get an FR to him and Get a chat going with him
He knows more than most on this stuff
I just sent a FR to Jayzgainz. Thx
Your diet looks good but if you're goal is to add mass/muscle you're gonna have to notch it up with the cals....yes some fat will be added but that's the nature of the beast. There will b time later to cut the bf, ....beef, whole wheat pastas and breads, pork loins, peanut butter, etc.....dirty it up a bit too, 80-20 burger, ribeye steak.....with your stats adding the mass should come quickly......keep the workouts no. More than 4 days a week, 1 on 1 off works well for me when bulking, cardio is NOT your friend when trying to bulk either, keep it 15- 20 mins max, I like to do 15 mins treadmill first thing after the morning piss, then on with the day...
Get your cals 400-500 above maint ed for a month and see how that goes,....if you start looking to "puffy", do a week or 10 days of a cut then back to the bulk macros.....repeat repeat repeat.....this approach helped me go from 161# 18% bf @46 yrs old...today 196# 13% bf @50yrs.......now 35# in 3 yrs isn't record setting but it's steady, healthy, and solid permanent gains.....
keep your goals in site and your mind strong, you can get it done!
Thanks brother. Appreciate the encouragement.
Unlike the majority of people that come here, it looks like you have done a good job of fixing your diet first and you should be commended for that. With that said, I don't think you should try any AAS without first getting a clearer picture of what is wrong with you hormonaly. You need to find a qualified doctor that is interested in finding the root cause here. You definitely need comprehensive bloodwork done because a borderline low total test number means nothing without looking at the entire picture. Please don't run any steroids at this point as it will only cloud any bloodwork you have done. I know where you are coming from because I was in a similar situation. My mistake was taking it upon myself to self diagnose and treat with TRT. Please learn from my mistakes and seek qualified medical help. Good luck and shoot me a friend request if you want to chat about any of this.
but even if I were to be diagnosed with low testosterone and need TRT, the doses that a doc will offer will be too low to make any difference in muscle mass, isnt that true? In that case, shouldn't I rather start AAS (if low test diagnosed) rather than TRT by a doc? Please advise.
Edit: this was just a long winded version of what waterhead posted while I wrote mine
If you need TRT and a doctor gets your levels to high normal, you will grow like a weed!
Ok, will have my endocrinologist run the entire hormone panel. Thank you
NotNatural23Go get bloods and also see if there is any other problems. Maybe see an an
endocrinologist. You might have some kind of hormone imbalance. As we get older it is harder to lose fat especially if you been prone to being fat. Your body doesn't like change it likes to stay at a current weight so going up or down is not what it likes to do. Your body sets a point where it likes and you have to work hard to get it to another set point. this is the easiest way to explain it there is so much more into but hope this helps some. I am having a hard time unless I am on point 100 percent on point with diet for moving the scales. I am almost 40 now Nd every year shit is harder. fuck getting old. lol
seem lucky that you can cut good but if you can gain muscle with some fat and then diet and get it off that isn't to bad. But yea get bloods for sure I would go to and endo doc instead of family because they know so much more about how everything is connected together with hormones. As men get older we lose testosterone and usually have more estrogen in the body.
Thanks man. I do have an endocrinologist - but its kinda my stupidity that I never asked them to check my full hormone (free test, esto etc) checked. Will make an appointment ASAP.