+ 2 "Safe" long term usage of AAS
Hej peepz,
so I recently stumbled upon this article, which showed a study about the mortality rate in professional bodybuilders.
link to Study
Even though it's lacking information about stuff like for example Causes of death, Natural vs. Enhanced, Bloods/compounds used and many more, most of them didn't exceed the age of 50 and I'd guess it mostly had to do with AAS, but actually we can only speculate and not more. But when looking at the literature, you could assume it's linked to AAS use.
(Take a look at this list link to list and this study as well link to list)
So all this made me think about some things I wanted to hear your thoughts on:
- What does "safe" long term usage of AAS actually mean to you?
- Of course we all knew (or at least we should) what we're getting into when we decided to use AAS, but in regards of AAS users, do you think there is even a "Safe" way to cycle?
- For those Eroid members who are already training and using aas for a long time (I know Makwa, Catalyst and others are), what's your view on it and how do you make sure that you're not becoming one additional person on this tragic list?
- Do you think that this might be connected to the lifestyle of a professional BB? Like high doses of AAS+many compounds at once over a long period of time? And can we actually learn from it to make the usage actually "safer"
- and lastly, what do you think is a form of prevention against falling into this category?
Note: I do have my own thoughts about all of this and I'm probably going to share them during this thread when discussing this, but I want to hold it back for a moment, because I don't want to bias the opinion of some. I would like to hear your actual thoughts on all of it.
As mentioned, would love to hear opinions on this topic. Feel free to share your stories and experiences and especially to the "older" guys, who are long time users already and made a lot of experiences over the decades.
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dropdzzDid this study delve into the fact that most body builders are compulsive or the fact that compulsive people tend to also self medicate?I had read a study in a rag that said there was a correlation between steroid use and recreational drug use.Im not sure if this is correct but it could explain some of the problems and anyone who's been to a pro show after party has seen a different side to the fitness world...in other words cocaine,Meth,ectacy etc.....
Please don't attack me I am not making accusations just speaking from my experience.
let's face it. we all started lifting to get laid more. Sure you might actually enjoy the gym and push yourself. but the reason you started was to get laid, or get people not to mess with you.
We don't lift weights to be "healthy". if I wanted to be "healthy" i'd probably end up like some vegan hippie that eats kale for every meal and talk about juice cleanses and 5%er with a 5:1 balls to dick ratio.
but seriously, extreme sport isn't healthy. Hell, look at ballerinas. they don't take steroids, but have you seen what they do to their feet? Look at distance runners.
Hell gymnasts hands get incredibly fucked up and it hurts them later in life. Gymnasts develop arthritis easier.
If you look at any extreme sport, something has to be sacrificed.
like Pericu said. look at football. concussions are rampant. If you haven't seen the movie concussion with Will Smith I suggest you watch it.
Steroids are like the alchemy's first law of equivalent exchange.
In order to receive, something of equal value must be given. In this case, bigger muscles, a six pack, better sex drive....for less time.
Totally! In that regard, some famous photographer made actually a picture of it which is kind of cool;
and for the people who are massochistic and curious, just type in "ballerina feet" at google pics...fucking disgusting!
Anyway, I like your analogy about if you want it all, there need to be sacrifices and in regards to professional sports, there's always a sacrifice to be made if you really want to be at the top..
Man.
I'm rather new here, but I have quickly developed a ton of respect for the active members on this site. It's impressive how seriously you guys take the responsibility of information.
Sometimes it's a bummer that the threads don't have more activity, but the information, experience, and guidance is pure gold. I literally learn something useful every time I log on, and there is no telling how many cliffs I would have walked off unintentionally if not for the diligence used by the good members.
Thanks so much!
I'm going to weigh in on this pretty hard when I have some extra time. Surprised no one sent me the link to this....
truth is there is alot of factors that go into this.
no obviously steroids are not 100% safe, but we do what we can to make it as safe as possible. this includes bloodwork multiple times per year. having a doctor who is aware of your aas use. taking off reasonable intervals of time between cycles. monitoring things like blood pressure. not over doing orals, etc, etc. as you get into competitive bodybuilding the risks can become even greater with drugs like diuretics, thyroid hormones, and other even more dangerous compounds i wont get into. ever seen a true top competitive powerlifters cycle? the amount of orals those guys push to perform on the platform is ridiculous.
but bodybuilding/powerlifting in itself is not a healthy subject. alot of body builders eat red meat multiple times per day. red meat is also very unhealthy. guys gorge on giant nasty cheat meals multiple times per week because they are on tren and GH and think they can burn right through it. mean while they are paying no attention to their lipids or heart health.
post show binging for bodybuilders has to be one of the most unhealthy things someone can do. gaining 20-30 pounds post show puts an ENORMOUS amount of stress on the cardiovascular system. 20-30 pounds in a few weeks is not uncommon. gaining and loosing large amounts of weight in a short period is VERY unhealthy.
i could go on and on, but my point is that bodybuilding is not something we choose because we want to have a healthy lifestyle, but we can minimize the damage if your smart about it. no obviously i dont want to join the dead bodybuilder list, but i understand that living this lifestyle isnt a choice i make because i want to be healthy. that being said i do take every precaution i can to minimize the risks.
as gear head said, this site caters to mostly beginner and intermediate users. vets are usually telling people something along the lines of "use less gear, train harder, eat more". notice its the guys who have been around the longest that realize that gear is only a piece of the puzzle. perhaps this is why they are around as vets, not burned out. the know that in the end food and training will dictate their results with gear being just a tool to push past genetic barriers.
Great post and that's what I was thinking as well.
I guess it's simply the nature of bein a professional athlete. Nearly every sport might be unhealthy (some more and some less) when performed on the highest level.
Take football, the rate of injuries are severe and there's a reason for that most professional careers end somewhere in the early 30's to 40's.
Maybe it's one more reason why professional Bodybuilding is that unhealthy. Your not only in it for a few years but to get on stage it already took many years of work and stress for the body and many do it for decades. Most professionals start lifting at the age of 15/16/17 and being in that game for that long, simply takes a toll on the body. Especially the higher you get, the more pressure there is on you and most often, the more severe measures are taken.
We can say that being a professional is kind of the "extreme" of a state off being and this will always come with a price.
Yes, slowly I'm sorry for posting this thread. Just thought it might be an interesting topic for a healthy discussion/sharing of thoughts.
well, another important aspect is time and patience. look at guys like dexter jackson, they just keep getting better and better, and overall apear to be relativly healthy all things considered. dexter jackson doesnt have huge rebounds after shows. and he has taken 25 years to grow into his physique. he didnt rush the process.
another example of a pro who played the long game and has been successful is john meadows. he doesnt get too far off of stage weight. he is very vocal about being safe. he has made statements about how if you cant grow on 300mg/week of test that bodybuilding isnt for you. he has also been very open about being against the use of diuretics in bodybuilding.
then you look at some of the younger pros, who have added 15 years of mass in 2-3 years and look at their faces. not hating, i admire their work ethic, but Justin Compton and Aaron Clark are a few pros who come to mind. they have added slabs of muscle in a few short years. these guys are in their 20's, but have the faces of guys in their mid to late 40's.
X2...eye opener for many people...
lol i love when people say im doing this to better myself and live healthy lifestyle, if you were trying to live a healthy lifestyle you wouldnt be using anabolic steroids. Does the media overhype the dangers? yes, to a degree. But it reminds me of health class and the teacher talking about smoking pot and what it will do to you. I remember smoking and thinking, ok im still just as smart, my memory is just as good they were totally wrong weed doesnt effect anything, but 10 years later i thought to myself wow my short term memory is fucking shot, my processing speed is slow as hell, im lazy, unmotivated etc etc etc. You wont notice the long term side effects after one cycle, but give it 10 years, most will start to notice the effects.
Steroids are not safe, nor are they healthy. I think the most healthy way to do this would be one cycle a year of just testosterone. Thats it, no orals, no tren, no deca, no eq, nothing, just test. And even then I know a guy who did almost just that, ran one cycle a year, moderate doses, did it for about 10 years maybe less its been a long time since we talked and he found out he had left ventricular hypertrophy. The next guy can abuse gear for 10 years and be fine What it comes down to most is genetics. Genetics rule all in life. My grandpa, my dads dad, and my nana, my moms mom are the same age, my grandpa ate like crap his whole life, hes 70lbs overweight right now, theyre both 84, he has diabetes, high bp, high cholesterol, all controlled by meds, never worked out during his younger years. His mind is sharp as when he was 40, my nana grew all her own food, all fresh from their garden, ate very healthy, excercised most of her life, and she has ostoperosis, moderate dementia, constantly falls and breaks bones. Shes the one who took care of her body al thoughout her life and shes the one whos really fallling apart. It should be the other way around.
Another example, my papa smoked from age 10 until her died at 86, 76 years of smoking cigarattes, and he didnt die of lung cancer. The next guy starts at 20 and gets lung cancer at 30. It all comes down to genetics in life man. We can take all our precautions as we should, and attempt to be healthy, but genetics rule all.
Yep...a person can't change what God has set in stone...people who choose to use, need not abuse!
Not yet... ;)
Bro,
I'm gonna come down on you like a ton of bricks for starting this shit up. Your opening comment is so "innocent" sounding - e.g. can one "cycle" safely for years? This is the front end of a thread that will take us down into those of us that are "always on" to maintain 50 lbs+ or more of muscle beyond genetic limits where cycles are no longer sufficient and the consequences of that.
Eroids is not a site for pro muscle. That's another world. It may be my world but but it's not what 99% of this community is about.
Most people here are just starting out or are intermediate users. This kind of thread belongs in advanced groups and you will find there that not much time is spent.
What is the ulterior motive here? You want a few of us to tell you that a) cycling for 20-30 years is definitely OK if you do it right? and / or b) you can stay on for a lifetime with these specific consequence, but other that that it's safe?
I might be over reacting. But I don't think so. I'm not tired or stressed and I'm actually in a good mood as I type this.
I hope the mods make you take this down and quickly or put it over in advanced cycles and see if you can get any traction there.
Your asking for an opinion on long term use which has 100's of factors in it for every individual and is nothing anybody here could know or should endorse.
There are only a handful of people in this entire community that could render an opinion on this from personal experience and it still doesn't matter.
To have the community at large give an opinion one after the other about long term use being safe and to have new users or intermediate users read this is totally inappropriate.
Sorry bro if I'm coming off like an asshole. If you want to PM me or Cat or a few others about this, that's fine. It does not belong on any forum as a thread.
I hope your intentions are good in writing this.
End of rant.
My most humble of humble opinions,
GearHead
No offense taken or any such thing.
First off, this isn't intended to be a thread to justify the decisions of an individual on "how long to take aas" and it's definitely not supposed to sound like a guide on how to cycle safely so that you're able to cycle your whole life. Just because some might share their experience on how they handled to make it as safe as possible for them, doesn't mean that will be the same for an other individual.
I know it's not and even though in the study shown there are only pro bodybuilders, it could still be applicable to some degree. Or we could even go that far to speculate of what pro bodybuilders cycles & lifestyle consist off and by that, show that the risk might probably outweigh the benefits if it's just for the, let's name them "common/regular" aas user who has no intentions on ever being on that level.
Still I see young lads with several compounds or high dosages and maybe, just maybe this could lead them to think about their approach.
Yeah, kind of see that, due to it was intended to be a discussion and sharing of experiences+thoughts.
In this point, you did get me wrong I guess. I'm not asking for a "how to guide" but more of a general recommendation on what has been most important for the individual user in their cycle history...not even a recommendation, even more just a sharing of their way and perhaps, way of doing things more appropriately. Maybe there are even some who started out with being such a fool as some of new members posting their cycle history and they realized, that their approach was not the best and changed their way of doing things.
Just as an example; A guy starting at 25 with several compounds, bla bla bla...15 years later he's back to only 1 compound, why? Because his bloods were better, he still made geat gains, etc.
Such like MedEx, he just gave a superficial recommendation on what he thinks are the most essential things to do, when you want to be on the safe side. Not really a "how to" but only his opinion.
I totally see that and it's not the first time that I post a thread which isn't up for discussion because it doesn't really belong here. Haha, if the mods feel that this might be the case with this one, I'm truly sorry and you're welcome to delete it.
Other than that, my intentions were only like MedEx already mentioned. Just to get people to think about all this, their approach, even if they really want to cycle longer when seeing some facts and mortality rates. I could even imagine that some people aren't truly aware of the risks that comes with it and maybe they start to think about it one more time.
PS. if there's some kind of confusing stuff in here, I'm sorry. Sitting at work but needed to reply and couldn't do it in one piece though
Bro, I am truly sorry for being a hard head about the topic of "safe" long term use of AAS. As I said, the bottom line here is that there are simply not enough active members of the eroids community who would qualify as "long term" users e.g 10, 20, 30 years to address this issue.
What I fear, then, is that responses will be a) theoretical or b) hearsay i.e. "I know this guy in my gym who . . . " or "I know a couple of pros and they told me that . . . " or "Go see the YouTube where Rich Piana (prob a bad reference LOL) talks about this, etc."
I'm an active contributor, and I have been using for over 15 years so I probably barely qualify to render an opinion and because I don't think there are enough people to join me in responding I don't want to even give my opinion in an open forum.
I don't represent this community. Nor to I speak for it in any way. I do have an opinion and I would be happy to share it in PM with anyone who wants to hear it.
No, you really don't have to apologize for taking a stance. I totally see your point and the more I think about it, the more I come to realize that this might not be the best place to discuss such thing, at least not when younger and unexperienced individuals see it.
There's the chance that some of those individual take the right things out of this discussion but sadly, we who have been here for longer, know better that most are only seeing what they want to see and by that, interpret things in a wrong manner when it comes to stuff like this.
So the there's probably a greater majority, who will only take this as an guide or something, which isn't the intention behind it.
I'd love to see this moved into the advanced group, and hopefully have it take traction there. If it doesn't, would you mind sharing your opinion on these things via PM?
I sent you a PM bro. I will talk to you about this.
X2...with the transfer to groups, if need be. This forum does, and can, point to being on the side of teaching safety, which is the most important...
I agree with the complexity of the post. Its definitely not a basic post, either.
Good point...have to agree with you. Most members here wouldnt know how to respond anyway.
Yeah, I start to see the point of you all
Teaching comes in various stages and degrees...receptivity of learning by grasping the concept requires questions for appropriate answers with effective rationale.
Nice post and perfect food for thought regarding the lifestyle. Addressing the third bullet has a lot to do with following advice from healthcare professionals, paying attention to signs and symptoms of the AAS being administered, staying on top of routine bloodwork, following a strict diet and exercise regimen, and minimizing stress as well as environmental factors that damage the body.