posted Fri, 07/04/2014 - 15:57
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+ 16 Steriod Purity Assesment by Electrospray Ionization mass spectrometry
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Another write up by the Dr about how the machine that he uses is used for purity assessment.
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The Angus testing may not be perfect, but it's the best I've seen yet. I'm looking forward to more mass spec results, and I hope my SRC keeps testing his raws with angus.
Glad it's unlocked.. I thought I knew enough to make at least a lil sense out of these tests, but this one proves me wrong. I'm clueless amout what's going on up there. Lol
Alin, why did you puss out?
Pages and pages of call out thread, and then you puss out!!
SMFH
You just lost all credibility with me, and I'm sure many others. I hope your spot in the rankings is short lived, you don't deserve to be there.
Damn, what a disappointment.
I'm running some Test E that angus tested as good, and my bloods just confirmed it.
I guess that will have to suffice as far as confirming the angus test method.
RustyhookerMy review on Karl is still in my main page. This just is another reason for more testing.
Hopefully it will work now
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/news-articles/136086-campaign-against-wil...
I've said it before and I'll say it again. William was bought out by Asian pharma a long time ago, as far as I'm concerned he has 0 credibility. You guys really need to stop believing everything you read on the net, this is why we are where we are to begin with smh.
Your probably right ill read up on it some more, however his lectures and books are still informative. some of it is irrelavant now but still some good reads.
I tried telling people this, alin has always attacked the testers. its the way he has been for years. I guess if my father was high up in a corrupt government I could do wtf I wanted to do also. I have no doubt he has access to testing equipment, prolly government labs but what he has tested and what he sends out are two different things.
I am sure he will come in and try and discredit me but all you have to do is go and google his name and read. How he is number 1, I will never understand.
With all respect, its not quite the same here as it is at meso. We can't just come here and make accusations over rumors and heresay.you say he is a selective scammer then the burden of proof is on you. I'm sure if you contact a mod with an email,order number or some pms proving your order the situation can and will be resolved.usually the way it works is one of you guys will come out and call scammer, then 20 guys will come out and say i got my order, to which your reply would be "uh, well no he's a selective scammer, some people do get orders". unfortunately that won't fly here, the way it will at your other board. no unsubstantiated accusations will be taken seriously, especially by an unknown member. this is especially hard to believe about a consistant #1 src with all positive reviews, who routinely gives away thousands of dollars in gear to low and high ranking members as well as i think a $6000 prize contribution to the ebc. anticdotally, i got 2 or 3 busted test p amps on one order and he sent me 10 as a replacement.there are dozens of members who will tell similar stories. if your unclear on any of this, go to the si page and a link up top says HOW TO HANDLE DISPUTES, click on that and it will help you resolve your issue.
With that being said, i do hate the way things worked out here. alin didn't have to prove that his tests were legit or than angus's were not,
With all do respect you should do some research outside of eroids. I have been around these boards for 14 years now and complaints about alin have always been around. A quick Google search would show you that. I don't order from sources like that.
Also, this really isn't about disrespecting you, its about friendly debate. Nobodys proving anything else in this thread apparently. if you post some proof thids guy scammed you then I'm with you, we can grab them pitchforks together!!!
And with respect to you, I've gotten $800 in hg geasr from this site for free and have paid for $300. The only place I've seen them called scammer is meso and there is no credibility there because thhe same 5-10 trolls that destroyed the ug section with their fantasy scoc and deep childish paranoia and conspiracy theories call every lab that comes there a scammer. even some well established ugl's and hg resellers. like i said they will say this guys a scamme (based on rumors or an anecdotal experience) and as soon as people come out saying, ive had flawless experiences for the last 10 yrs they say, well of course u have because he's a selective scammer. shill, dickrider, fanboy and whatever else.
this is what makes sites like eroids superior over uncensored boards or heavily censored sponsor boards. They protect the members and srcs, protecting good srcs in turn protects the interests of the members snd not just letting anyone call scammer with no proof does the same. its how we weed out the actual scammers and stops this place into turning into something like meso where noone can tell the difference between real scammers, perceived scammers or just some srcs the spiteful children at meso don't like for whatever reason. one time i heard a mod say the board comes first, then the members then the srcs and that's exactly how it should be.
I'm not just defending alin here, they recently did lose a lot of credibility with me, I'm defending this whole place.
AnonLike omg I'm so surprised!
I'm not saying Angus tests are 100% because I don't know but what I've been trying to say from the beginning is to take a good look at the people leading the assault against him… but yeah what happened to the supposed tests from both parties??
Exactly, I don't know if Angus's test are perfect but I sure as fuck don't trust Alin or the words of any source here or any where else. Their job is to make money, not look out for the members. Its up to the members to look out for one another, along with the mods.
AnonI'm tired of this. If I laid out everything it would bare minimum stir up a bunch of crap I have no desire to deal with max get me banned.
Ashop was busted for fake reviews/votes in 2013. Karl was just recently banned for threatening members over bad reviews and late packs. He seems to have a history of not sending out packs until harassed into doing so - Karl that is. Not to mention several highly questionable test results. Make of that what you will.
End result = no one even had to prove a damn thing and the end-user got completely fucked since we don't have access to testing anymore. Mission accomplished.
angusThat is unfortunate indeed. However, I didn't go anywhere. I just finished my vacation. I have received no samples for testing though. Not sure what is going on, it's beeen pretty quiet.
Idk man, i think the objective was reached cause i havnt seenn a new mass spec in several weeks. i don't think the thing could be won zny better than that. i don't got a side anyway just tryin to being perceptive. i really liked underground snabolics snd you don't see that around nomore either
Alin, tell me this isn't true.
All parties need to shit or get off the pot! There is much at stake here and I'd hate to see this get swept under the rug.
This is getting exciting.
Any updates on the head to head lab challenge? have samples been sent out, anyone testing them yet?
RustyhookerX2 ! Everyones watching globally to see what floats
X3!
I thought ashop backed out of that cause he said it may be biased or something. i guess it don't matter to me much either way but i did find an interesting read on a fairly similar situation.http://anabolicminds.com/forum/news-articles/136086-campaign-against-wil...
RustyhookerCan you make that link workable? This situation needs closure
How do you make a link workable?
That would be really disappointing.
This probably the last and final comment of our future standpoint on this field
First of all we have been on eroids quite long time now but to be honest we haven´t been that active until few months back we began to involve remarkable more here.
With that said when we first saw the mass spec tests be published in this section we got the feeling that angus test was kind of of an unofficial FDA approvement here and we gladly joined the wave because we wanted tot quality check ourselves to be sure that both we got what we pay for and thereby our customers and we would prevent any kind of quality concerned issues. Now that this gotten so far we have this following statement that everything has to be documented and in our honest opinion no matter how much we or anybody wanted to trust angus this aint nothing to do with trust because science doesn´t work with trust, kindness or any other similar topics, neither complicated explanations themselves can or should be accepted as anything near science, ALL CLAIMS MUST BE DOCUMENTED and this case by a certified lab and everything has to be in original package documented such from the lab as well !!
To get this short and clear for everybody as we like to be transparent in our business and even though this may have the risk of scaring some or many customers away we do no have any other choice and our philosophy of business conduct
This means we do not compensate, accept or discuss in anyway anything being claimed about our products before above mentioned criteria of tests are met, this should prevent any future customers to get in that situation if they rely on such tests they simply don´t buy from us !!!
This ain´t leaving us with many opportunities but thats the princip of science that everything must empirically be documented.
At this point a labmax test is much more scientifically correct as it actually can be recorded and documented for the view of everybody, some word documents prove shit as Ashop says, these days some people can not even trust their mum and scients again has nothing to do with trust and when we take angus word documents as such we do it on pure trust and thats abviously nothing to with science!!!!
I hope its obvious we strive not to take any sites not Angus neither Ashop because this again aint nothing about taking sites.
At this point the result of this debate means nothing but entertainment and exchange of personal views for us !!
That´s the gold coins from the King, keep it hardcore on the gym floor fellas !!
Damn Nitti, I owe you an apology. My response has triggered the thread to devolve right back into its former chaos.
I'm tempted to just take my toys and go home. For my own purposes I can order up a two years worth of gear then take a vacation to a country where steroids are not controlled and have them tested.
But I still hold out hope that somehow all this can be worked out and accurate, affordable testing can be put in place for the benefit of the entire community. For now I will just sit this out until the dust settles.
Nicely said, but ... it's quite obvious who sticks for Angus along the whole Fn thread while claims he has no agenda ... nicely said ......
Remember when we first started "discussing" the issue of the poor test results and you wanted me to prove to you that I bought from you, even though it would give you access to my personal information?
I said that would do no good because you would just accuse me of sending something different or just attack the testing?
Well here we are.
The assertion that I "stick up" for angus is totally baseless. Please read ALL my posts on this topic.
I have a business also. I delegate most tasks to others, as I'm sure you do as well. But when a customer contacts me with a complaint I do not attack the customer. or demand that he prove he was even a customer. Instead I listen and ask that the customer give me a chance to look into it and allow me to call them back.
I then investigate my own operation and employee behavior to see if there is a basis for the complaint. I do not ask the customer to prove anything to me. It is my job to prove to him that either I could not verify that the complaint was accurate, or that I found the problem, fixed it, and offer to compensate him.
You may consider this Customer Service Tutorial gratis. Best wishes. Good bye
I would love to make such investigation, this was the whole point of my approach to u. Unfortunately and from reasons a honest man wouldn't consider u disrepected my good and honest will and still is,
Would u accept my PM after 4 weeks ?
In polotics one choose to believe to who ever he preferred based on subjective factors, but some guys here confuse politics (which Angus is good at) and sciense.
The methods of analysis of angus were proven to be invalid. I'm not sure how so many words may be spent over such obvious
I agree. I think Angus can go into politics anytime. He will have lots of success.
Didn't Labrat say the were valid, and as good as could be done without a USP standard?
If the equipment and methods are used properly then u may identify raw materials, they don't
And no disrespect - since when labrat is an authority ?! You repeat on the same mistake of trusting a a freindly member here insteaed of stick to science and find for u inependent lab
He's (labrat) the only one in this discussion that claims to be an analytical chemist.
He seems to be pretty unbiased, and clearly has knowledge on the subject.
I'm looking forward to the side by side comparisons that should be posted soon.
I have not had my purchasing choices influenced by any of Angus's test results, and don't run expotic compounds yet, so this is just an interesting discussion to me. I don't have a dog in this fight.
It is clearly apparent that poor mass spec results can have a huge impact on the sales of a UGL, I can understand why we need to be sure the results are valid.
If I had to put money on the results of the "lab challenge" I'd put 20 bucks down on Angus. I sure hope we have a clear answer to all of our questions soon, even if it means I'd lose my 20 bucks LOL.
LABRAT is part of Angus team. He also made mistakes in his statements. I pointed them. Those guys are copying from manuals parts of good theory then twist the things so you accept their testing. Guys if you want to use Angus use it but his error margin is the same as reading the crystal globe. How can you be so naive ? Some guy with a new name that never posted before popped out here when Angus had problems and posted some text copied from manuals then started twisting things into Angus favour. He can do analyzes if you do not care if they are not real.
So the more I read about this testing method ,the more I realize this Electrospray mass spectrometer isn't an adequate test to accurately identify impurities in an already manufactured product. What I mean is, all you guys who have sent samples (members, not sources), you are not doing anyone a service. In fact you're wasting money and posting false information because you aren't informed. Everyone just kind of took the mass spec thing and ran with it. I'm still researching but so far it seems the only thing an Electrospray Mass spectrometer is good for is identifying the purity of raw materials but even then, the material isn't broken down properly by this machine. There are 3 types of impurities.
Organic impurities
Inorganic impurities
Residual solvents
The electro spray is not the method of choice according to United States Pharmacopeia (USP) standards for identifying the impurities in a sample. The necessary method for identifying and calculating the amount of impurity in a sample is the Gas chronography Mass spectrometer. So any finished product sample sent in for testing with these guys was not going to come out right. So I'm curious to know how many samples were sent in that turned up shit results from finished products. This whole thing should be scrapped IMO.
At the very least , the person conducting the tests should have known the finished product samples would not be properly broken down using this electro spray ms. I'm not sure what the solution is at this point but I know everyone who looks to these tests and everyone who plans on paying for testing should do some homework. Here's a link to a simple guide into the working of these machines. There are many like it. It's a lot to process for those of us who aren't chem or biochem experts. But if you can comprehend what you read , you should be able to follow for the most part.
http://www.chem.agilent.com/Library/primers/Public/5991-0090en_lo.pdf
I'm very reluctantly writing here because I understand you asked that
regular members remain out of the discussion. However I feel so strongly about this topic that I feel compelled to risk a mighty whack from the ban hammer or to have my already pitifully small karma number put at risk by speaking out.
I vehemently disagree that we are doing a disservice posting our results--if for no other reason than it has brought about this discussion. Furthermore I posted a test that clearly showed predominantly clomid with a small amount of proviron in a product marketed as proviron.
I think I am correct in assuming everyone here (except I'm sure Ashop will find an argument) agrees that MS can accurately identify what steroids are in the product. Whether it can be used to completely identify all impurities or accurately quantify is open for debate. However in the end angus' test did show the community that the product was not what it was sold to be.
His test result also matched my experience with using the product, and no, I did not tell him ahead of time what that experience was. The sample was sent in blind. I find it odd that so many of us want to continue using subjective user experiences rather than testing, yet are reluctant to give any weight to a test that validated that users experience.
I truly believe most SRCs would rather we did not have the ability to test their products independently. It does them no good whatsoever when we test--it forces them to up their game, ultimately costing them a whole lot of money and effort.
Demanding ridiculously expensive test methods, or methods that we cannot find any lab to run would accomplish that. Claiming Angus' credibility is beyond redemption and refusing to let him work with his lab to address their concerns and continue testing with improved methods would accomplish that. Convincing the Mods and Eroids community that it gives Angus too much power and refusing to allow his results to be posted would also accomplish that.
And regarding the power issue, I don't think those who are legitimately concerned about that have thought it through. How in the hell does Angus get power to control SRCs ratings when he does not have any idea whose product he is testing? Every sample just needs to be sent in blind with no suppliers info. If I'm missing something here, please fill me in.
One of the Mods, I forget who, said Eroids is here to protect the members, not the SRCs. Testing will do more to protect the members than all the "this shit is fire, gained 20 lbs, great sex drive" reviews combined.
If we encourage and continue testing I believe we will get much cleaner, more effective and accurately dosed products than would ever be possible without independent testing. Changing the way we do things is hard and uncomfortable, but it will pay off.
You are but naive here. Members I am sure are huge scammers. They use reviews to blackmail sources. Come on man. You seem hell bent on bashing a source on here that has been around forever selling good gear. You seem to have an agenda my friend.
Really? You don't have any issues with a source that puts fraudulent lot numbers and expiration dates on his products?
You don't think that a source that would do that might seem more likely to be fraudulent about what is on the inside?
Why would I bother "bashing" this source? He is not ranked high enough for anyone to bother trying to sabotage. And what possible relevance does his longevity have do do with anything? Sources go bad on a regular basis.
You can believe with certainty that if I was trying to blackmail this SRC he would be posting the email or pm threads proving it all over these pages.
Your logic seems to be that since you like him, anyone who has had a bad experience with him must have an agenda. This is the very definition of a fanboy.
I suggest to other interested readers, look up this one karma member and check out his posting stream.
I am a huge fan of sciroxx. If you look through posts you will see that i openly admit it. I hate to see someone bash a good guy.
Ranked high enough??? Are you so short sighted that you think someones rank on eroids actually has something to do with the size of their operation or amount of happy customers they have? Eroids is new the online scene. It is a small fish in a big pond. If have been around, a lot of sources come and go. The one you love to bash has been around for a long time.
You don't have to blackmail a source to hurt him. Just post a bad lab test and the damage is done. Maybe you did get something bad or underdosed or whatever. This guy would of made it right. Lab test by the way, that were done BY SOMEONE THAT IS IN BUSINESS WITH ANOTHER SOURCE! You don't think this is a huge conflict of interest?
This thread shouldn't be about any source but the validity of the testing that we are using
Call me cynical or whatever but here is my opinion: I do not believe he can do even ID correctly because he does not have good analysts. If he was able to ID means he would not lie with purity until now and he would not say he can detect concentration. Much more "purity" was only invented by him ( no other chemist heard of such analyze ) to show members he can do something for them interesting so he can cash good money.
Why he did not presented ID of compounds on MS and he presented something very different until now ? but anyway the decision if he will be approved to work further here with a new machine and new analyzes will be considered valid is a decision that board mods admins will take. I just present facts.
You should be think with the head not with the heart, I presented all valid reasons and analyzes that Angus was doing nothing for members here just taking money. It was easier for me to comply with him and sending him 100 samples for testing and then results would be good because I would bring him cash. That was the idea of his business. But I am not a stupid monkey that doesn't know what mean a good analyze and I know what I sell
Eroids is here to keep EVERYONE honest ,not just sources. You think sources don't get reverse scammed my scum bag members? It happens every day. Those tests that you want to keep in place, they accurately test raw material. Not finished product! Do your homework!
First, why would you worry about being banned? Why would anyone ban you for expressing your opinion? You guys need to break that fear and stop hiding behind it. Nobody here will ban you unjustly. You've got to be a pretty big douchebag to get banned. With that said I'll again tell you I think you are on the right track wrong train. Sure, go get the tests done and find that your stuff actually contains what it says. But if the tests are inadequate for measuring the proper numbers , then there should be mention of this ,..in bold red at the top of the post. Misleading the community and lining someone else's pockets after all this has come to light will be viewed as intentional deception. From me anyway. I don't trust anyone. I think lots of ppl have an agenda here And in acting on the false ,inaccurate test results you're showing me that you have an agenda. I don't know you personally and don't know exactly what your stake is in all this. You are totally within your right to post results or finding. But when it's been brought to light that the methods you're using aren't actually capable of measuring steroid purity, would you like me to turn a blind eye and ignore this fact? Just let you bash sources wig these findings? I can't do that. It's my job to keep sources and members honest here. And I will always do that.
I don't like flagrantly breaking rules on a site where I am a guest/member. You said don't post, and for me to do so anyway seemed likely to be viewed as potentially disrespectful. I don't think I hid behind anything because I went forward and said it anyway.
I was aware of the issue of purity in a finished product before posting the report on the proviron. That is one reason I NEVER mentioned the product's purity. I only pointed out that it contained clomid in an apparently larger amount than proviron.
This product should not have had ANY clomid in it. And since the MS can, to the best of my knowledge, accurately determine WHAT is in a sample, and since it matched my experience with the product, I felt it would be of value to the community to have this information.
Can the MS accurately tell that it contained both clomid and proviron? If so then I did not act on any inaccurate information. If the MS cannot do this then I acted on it unknowingly, believing that it could.
Why is it necessary to have any larger agenda than to want good products? Why am I suspect because I am willing to have my purchases tested?
It is common knowledge that there have been a lot of negative test reports that have never seen the light of day. The subsequent bashing by the SRC and his fanboys is probably why. It would have been easier for me to contact the SRC privately and work out a reimbursement deal. Not better for the community but easier for me. Why should my motives be suspect because I posted a negative report that was, to the best if my knowledge accurately showing a contaminated or substituted product?
Believe me Nitti, I'm right there with you. I too trust no one.
the method of eluting materials is completely invalid for this tab testing, and some here begged you for a little little cooperation to prove it, but u liked the attention and the "feeling" you;re right, if you don't have an agenda then the one who mislead u had.
Phak - you couldn't accept my FR even, this is how you thrive for honest testing ?!!!
How you care of the other memebrs if you can't provide minimal cooepration.
Why and how u dare to lie to Nitti and say you don't trust anyone while you officially declared you trust Angus invalid testing, and wouldn;t give the opportunity for parallel inspection ?!
You lie intentionally .
the SRC you pretend to lab test asked repeatedly for proves u ordered from him. You refused to give any info and presented cheap excuses why. The SRC would post of course relevant lab tests, and would/will ask other members to submit relevant lab test to a lab with real capabilities, and not an agenda, so your tests would be proven to be BS, how convenient for u to avoid it dud.
you preferred to hide behind excuses and not reveal any info, but the thread with the lab test based on INVALID methods u posted proudly - It was clearly proven here that the methods which were used are irrelevant for this lab test of a tab. The SRC asked to submmitt info and u refused, THE REASON IS SIMPLE - THE METHOD OF ELUTING THE DIFFERENT MATERIALS IN THE TAB IS INVALID AS WELL AND IT'S EASY TO PROVE IT !!!
And I say - send an independent lab now the sample - now !
You make much damage to this community, you mislead the members, and u hide behind cheap excuses