+ 5 1st ever cycle, input/advice very much appreciated
quick background, I lifted very seriously for about 3 years for powerlifting (didn't compete but trained with the intention of competing one day as I was very close to taking the 242 raw record based on gym mock meets). At my peak I weighed 255ish, was probably between 20-25%bf (I hold fat kinda weird, in a good way I suppose, so its tough to tell visually. plus a bit of excessive lordosis which I am aggressively trying to correct.)
anyways, best lifts were a very easy 635 beltless squat (prob had 655)/455 tng bench/655 beltless DL. school eventually got in the way and had to become my priority and so all that went down the shitter over the course of 3 years w/o lifting. I was 24 when I stopped and am currently 27 with more time on my hands and currently sit at 220lbs and I'd estimate 15-18%BF (I have a bad eye for this, you can judge from the pics). Current best lifts in making my return are a 405x10 easy beltless squat and a 545x5 beltless DL resetting each rep (no TnG). I didn't list bench for a reason, I'm having some shoulder issues which I will have looked at by a PT or chiro as its limiting how often I can train bench and I don't want to risk injury nor jump on gear till my connective tissue can handle a 405 paused single. But last I trained it I got 335x2 :(
as far as diet goes, I really don't have anything set in stone. I know how to eat when Im full because I know my progress the next workout depends on it. I take in a minimum of 300g protein/day, carbs and fats at every meal (4-5 meals per day, each consisting of up to 1000cals depending on how many meals I eat that day) and really just am in tune enough with my body from past experience to know whether or not I need to eat more. I will however make it a point to get my BF under 15% (tested to be sure) before starting anything.
And BTW like I said, I have certain lifts I am deadset on hitting naturally before starting this, probably something like 605x1 beltless/405x1 paused/635x1 beltless. This, especially considering the state of my bench, will most likely take several months to accomplish and therefore I have no intent on running this until the issue is addressed but I'd still like to get some feedback and possibly grab some stuff here and there from a few top domestic sources while they're on top and producing quality products.
My goal in doing this cycle is to get to where I was before I stopped lifting (or perhaps slightly surpass it as I was still utilizing linear progression in my programming to make gains so I don't think I was at or near my genetic potential) but at about 20lbs less bodyweight. So basically 1800+ raw w/ a belt, no wraps at 225ish bodyweight. Not sure how lofty a goal that is but I have muscle memory working for me, I know what type of training works best for me, how to eat, etc. so Im just gonna give it hell and do everything I can to reach it.
Alright lets get to the actual compounds. Ill update with before (before I stopped lifting), and current pics, gotta resize them 1st.
Id prefer to go with the standard 500mg of test C but the source I plan on purchasing from only does 300mg/mL last I checked but if I can do 500mg, I will. Pins will be done e4d@250-300mg (again, depends what I can get) with a prop taper following my last test cyp pin to allow a nice quick transition to PCT. Credit to "Doss" from the beginners cycle group for this idea and almost identical cycle layout (http://www.eroids.com/og/beginners-cycles/beginner-cycle-1-or-2-test-e-w...), he makes a lot of very good points in that thread that I definitely agree with. Obviously bloods will be done at appropriate times (before, midway through, post PCT, etc). AI will be implemented once I start feeling some signs of elevated E2 levels so I can get a feel for what that feels like (as per Doss's advice) and nolvadex, aromasin, arimidex (just incase me and aromasin don't jive well for whatever reason, Im gonna try aromasin first however) and letro (just incase) will be on hand throughout the entire duration of this cycle from the very first pin. PCT starts 3-4 days after last prop pin, if PIP becomes a major issue Ill drop the prop and begin PCT 3 weeks after the last cypionate pin.
Anyways, let me know what you guys think, any advice would be greatly appreciated and taken into consideration. Like I said I do not plan on running this for at least another 3-4 months or so but I'd like to have everything put together and start getting things organized as soon as I get a definitive plan together so I can begin without worry when the time comes. Thanks.
| Week | Testosterone Cypionate | Testosterone Propionate | Aromasin (may start at week 3 if needed) | Clomid | Nolvadex (PCT and prn gyno) |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | 500mg | ||||
| 2 | 500mg | ||||
| 3 | 500mg | ||||
| 4 | 500mg | 6.25-12.5mg ED | |||
| 5 | 500mg | 6.25-12.5mg ED | |||
| 6 | 500mg | 6.25-12.5mg ED | |||
| 7 | 500mg | 6.25-12.5mg ED | |||
| 8 | 500mg | 6.25-12.5mg ED | |||
| 9 | 500mg | 6.25-12.5mg ED | |||
| 10 | 500mg | 6.25-12.5mg ED | |||
| 11 | 500mg | 6.25-12.5mg ED | |||
| 12 | 100mg EOD | 6.25-12.5mg ED | |||
| 13 | 100mg EOD | 6.25-12.5mg ED | |||
| 14 | 100mg EOD | 6.25-12.5mg ED | |||
| 15 | 100mg EOD | 6.25-12.5mg ED | |||
| 16 | 12.5mg ED | 100mg ED | 20mg ED | ||
| 17 | 12.5mg ED | 100mg ED | 20mg ED | ||
| 18 | 6.25mg ED | 50mg ED | 10mg ED | ||
| 19 | 6.25mg ED | 50mg ED | 10mg ED |
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okay for some reason I can't add anymore pre cycle pics so I put a current pic (this is NOT a post cycle pic, i just put it there so people could easily distinguish what I look like now vs the ones from weeks ago) in the post cycle section.
so post cycle picture = what I look like now, however I have NOT run anything yet
RustyhookerYour precycle pic current? Definitly not 20%.
alright guys well heres the deal. those lifts I wanted to get (605/405/635), Im just about there. I'm at 545x2 belted. 355x3 tng, and tbh I can probably pull 635, that lift came back extremely fast for some reason. so i haven't quite hit them yet but Im within pissing distance of them.
heres the issue: Ive been eating like an animal, lifting like an animal, and the muscle memory is literally having me progress in size and strength very dramatically (initially strength but for the last month I've noticed size has been coming quicker as well). I weigh 237 in the morning and my body fat (which is something I didn't specify as a goal when hitting those #s before going on).....well its def not 15%. Infact i wouldn't be surprised if I was at or over 20% (not by a lot tho, less than those before pics I put up before I stopped lifting 3 years ago). I dunno, seeing my weight go up so fast, strength blow up, getting closer and closer to what I was before I stopped...I just kinda let the whole body fat thing go.
I want to do this the right way. I understand these are powerful drugs with potentially serious, long lasting side effects if not utilized safely and responsibly as part of a healthy lifestyle (diet, not smoking or drinking, etc). In my research, ive also accepted the fact that, while unlikely but possible, I may suffer from one or more of these effects even if I do everything "by the book." Understood, every measure will be taken to ensure this goes right including appropriate blood work (which due to my location Ive realized is gonna be a pain in the ass and expensive but whatever, health is more important).
I realize that starting AAS (simple cycle like outlined above) at a lower body fat is advantageous especially in terms of minimizing estrogenic side effects, high blood pressure, etc. and I told myself I'd get to 15%, maybe less (tested) before using ANYTHING. Lets say Im 20% body fat currently ( I can get pics in a few days if needed, phone probs, but I'm basically a smaller slightly leaner version of my pre layoff self, which are the 2 left pics in the second pic from the left below my main one). given my muscle mass, I don't know that I'd call myself fat but Im certainly not lean; Im certainly carrying enough body fat to where Ive seen mods and advanced members tell others to lose body fat before considering cycling, although I don't know if they were at my level of size/strength (not trying to brag, I'm nothing special, just making it a point that I'm not an average joe at 20% with no muscle mass or training experience).
Should I continue with my plan of hitting those "pre cycle numbers" (which Ive essentially done) and then do the outlined cycle (at 20%bf) provided I don't put on anymore bf and place an emphasis on recomping or possibly cutting while on cycle from the first pin?
or should I bite the bullet, diet down to say 12-15% body fat (which admittedly I'll probably do faster than I should because of what lies at the end..ie ill prob lose more size and strength than "normal" because ill be rushing to do this 1st cycle), take any strength loss that comes with it, and then proceed with the cycle with an emphasis on lean mass gain and building strength?
I will say this tho, i have cut a few times in the past, not to any impressive levels, and even going slowly, I ALWAYS lost strength on something and everything else pretty much stagnated. and considering my goals ain powerlifting, cutting really won't be an issue (weight class wise) because I believe my frame is best suited as a 242+. now when it comes to putting on size and strength (not pretty looking size, but making the scale go up, and I don't mean gaining copious amounts of fat), I can pretty much hang with anyone. Im a big boned stocky guy; you'll never see me on a fitness magazine cover no matter how many drugs I take, its just not what Im cut out for and thats fine because I enjoy powerlifting and strength sports.
just something to think about when offering your input; I can do size and strength very easily; i WILL lose strength on even a properly done cut but if that the best option, its the path I will take (and I have a feeling this will be the advice of most of you.)
thank you guys.
Dude, you got some massive shoulders!
thanks man, its a love/hate relationship with the delts, they wanna take over every friggen exercise I do lol. really makes getting good chest development very difficult. I will say this tho, while I am probably a little better off genetically in the delts department than the average person, they really started getting that rounder look to them when I started hammering my rear delts more often/with more volume, etc. I dunno if the look was purely from hypertrophy or a shoulder girdle/posture correction as a result of strengthening my upper back (prob a combination of the 2) but i noticed a significant change for the better when was consistently smashing rear delts.
hope I'm allowed to do this, just wanna get some input
bump
put up some pics, the one with 4 images/pic is me at my biggest/strongest before stopping on the left (255ish), and the 2 on the right and maybe a week back into things after 3 years out. think I weighed something like 195 there. Currently Im 220 on the dot in the morning after a little over 2 months going balls to the walls 5-6 days a week in the gym and the kitchen. Strength is coming back VERY nicely, the effect muscle memory is having on this entire thing is unbelievable.
as far as pics, I got the 2 from where I was at before stopping (yes fat, bloated but powerlifting was what I was good at and really enjoyed doing so thats what I trained for), the other 2 (the right ones on the same image) are essentially what I looked like 3 years later when I decided I had time to start doing this to the degree I was before.
everything else is current and NOT pre-cycle, I have numbers i am deadset on hitting and bf/weight goals I am deadset on hitting before I even click "add to cart" on anything, so its gonna be a few months before this gets going. just trying to prep in advance. pretty happy overall with the size and (moreso) strength I've put on, especially considering the time frame. I think Ive made more improvements in my back size wise vs the front just cause Ive been having some shoulder flexibility problems (which I've improved on quite a bit) so hopefully I can start incorporating more frequent/heavier/high volume presses into my routine. but still, added some decent mass from the front. legs blew up but unfortunately I forgot to take a before pic of them but they really packed on some size as well
hey guys, sorry I haven't responded sooner, been extremely busy and I'd like to address each of your input's individually (which I appreciate you very much giving!). Anyways, I will respond in more detail tomorrow, just wanted to thank you for the advice so far, I will definitely be implementing it and making some changes when I update tomorrow.
EDIT: reposted pics
I like the research and effort put forth in this cycle. Your going to do good bro. I'm figuring your test e is dosed at 300mg ml that's why Ur running 600mg? That should be good I would run the prop at 100mg no need to taper IMO. Pct starts 3 days after last shot. And I would wait 4 weeks to start the aromasin unless estro sides present themselves sooner. Acne, itchy nips, bloat. All in all it looks very solid I would love for you to post some before pics and after
good luck bro and happy pinning.
thanks man, I appreciate it. didn't realize how much time goes into making things as ideal as possible research wise so Im glad I didn't waste anyone's time by having them look it over and appreciate all feedback offered.
yes originally the cyp was dosed at 300mg/ml however it now appears that they carry 200mg/ml so if that is still the case when I go to order, I will def run 500 vs 600mg/week, but if it comes down to only having 300mg/ml available, Id rather just put 2ccs in and KNOW I'm getting 600mg vs getting slightly different amounts each week due to margin of error from trying to draw 1 and 2/3 ccs, although i probably shouldn't comment on the practicality of making that accurate of a measurement until I actually see the syringes, might not be a big deal to do.
also agreed on the prop taper, I think i wrote this out at like 6 in the morning cause I couldn't sleep but I would imagine if one were to taper, they'd essentially want to do the exact opposite of what I have written (i.e.. start the prop low and up the dose as the longer chain ester clears since you're gonna be shutdown anyways, might as well keep the test high/stable throughout the cycle if it allows a fast transition to PCT). Does that sound correct? I understand the concept of switching to prop/fast clearing esters as PCT approaches but the whole tapering thing did have me a little confused as I felt it made more sense to do the opposite like I said above^ but I could be wrong.
^^In anycase Im gonna take the advice of you and others and keep it simple by just ending it with 1 10cc vial of 100mg/ml prop, wait it out 72 hours, and begin PCT. oh and pics are on the way. thanks again
X2 on not tapering.
I don't see a need to taper your prop dosage down at the end like that. You can just run 100 mg EOD throughout the whole prop taper. Then start your pct 3 days after last pin. Assuming your prop is 100 mg/ml, I would just run 1 ml EOD until 1 vial is gone. Way to do your research bro. This should be a great cycle for you.
agreed, you and several others in this thread and people I've spoken to privately have all said the exact same thing so Im gonna go ahead and stick with what you said. appreciate the advice
Looks like you did your research and developed a solid plan. If you wait until you reach your natural goals for strength first I believe you wil be able to get back to your previous maxes with this cycle.i would start your aromasin at 6.25 and adjust if necessary but I think it should be a good dose. And since your dose of prop is so low on that last week I would wait only 3 days to start pct. and depending on the brand of prop you might have no pip. The best prop I ever used was basically painless.
thanks! yeah strength is returning very rapidly on literally everything except bench for some reason. its going up just not BLOWING up like everything else. As much as I hated being out of the gym for 3 years, I can see myself getting very close to my best previous numbers at 20lbs less bodyweight just cause the strength gain from muscle memory is so much more rapid than the size gain (so far). And yeah Ive heard some pretty crazy things about the PIP from prop but like you said, I've also heard of fairly new users having no/little PIP issues (guys that ordered from highly rated sources typically). Once I get my PCT stuff and ancillaries, prop will probably be the second thing I purchase cause I do see a few sources putting out prop that many are claiming has very little PIP. thanks for the input!
looks like a good plan.
Most folks get great results with only 500 mg a week, you may want to drop down for the first cycle.
I would take a full week off of pinning the Prop before starting your PCT. And your right about the PIP, prop leaves me hurting!
All in all, a great plan! good job +1
thank you! yeah like I said above, Id definitely go with 500 vs 600 for sure, Im just not certain how accurately I will be able to draw 1 and 2/3rds of a ml from a 300mg/ml vial (then again I've never done it before, so depending on the grading increments of the syringes, it might be much easier than Im thinking it is). I just figured id rather do 600mgs a week (from 300mg/ml) cause there'd be less margin of error doing it that way and Id get a more consistent amount per pin vs trying to get 500mg a week split in 2 equal amounts. But, the place I planned on getting the bulk of this from now looks like they have 200mg/ml test cyp so if thats available when I go to pull, the trigger on this, Ill be doing 500.
It's pretty simple to do the ratio math with the mg/ml concentration you get. you should not be pinning 1 and 2/3rds of a cc at once! Pin twice a week, or every three days.
If you get 250mg cyp, pin one cc twice a week. If you get 200mg cyp you pin 1.25 cc's twice a week
oh yeah, definitely not. sorry, shoulda worded that more clearly. Id pin e3d so if I were to go for 500mg/week with 300mg/ml that'd come out to 1.67ccs (for 500mgs) so I'd have to split that up to 0.835mL per pin. and again, it very well could be a non issue in terms of accurately measuring it out depending how the measurements on the syringe are incremented (tenths, quarters, etc.). Id just like to eliminate as much margin of error as possible.